How old does he look?

[Water Bob]

The D20 system deals fine with age....

You think so...

Hm...

OK, let's take the standard elite array (since we're talking about a PC): 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8.

Next, we make our character 80 years old. And, by my average chart in the OP, this character is probably 7th level (though we all know that a PC at age 80 is probably approaching level 20 if not there already).

Next, we improve stats based on level. We get 1 pt at 4th and improve all at 6th. So, I'll improve my stats to: 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 10.

I'll make him a Fighter, because that's easy.

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 10
CHR 11

Now, we apply ageing modifiers from the PHB: -6 to physicals; +3 to mentals. Our 80 year old ex-fighter looks like this...

STR 10
DEX 8
CON 9
INT 16
WIS 13
CHR 14

I don't know about you...but that's still a pretty strong character at age 80. Don't forget he's got INT skill points to make him better at skill checks than he ever was before. In many cases, he can more than compensate for the Stat bonus loss by boosting a particular skill with skill points and feats like Skill Focus. This 80 year old could actually be better at Climbing mountains than he was at his prime at age 25!

Still think that the d20 system handles age appropriately?

 

[Loonook]

You think so...

Hm...

OK, let's take the standard elite array (since we're talking about a PC): 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8.

Next, we make our character 80 years old. And, by my average chart in the OP, this character is probably 7th level (though we all know that a PC at age 80 is probably approaching level 20 if not there already).

Next, we improve stats based on level. We get 1 pt at 4th and improve all at 6th. So, I'll improve my stats to: 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 10.

I'll make him a Fighter, because that's easy.

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 10
CHR 11

Now, we apply ageing modifiers from the PHB: -6 to physicals; +3 to mentals. Our 80 year old ex-fighter looks like this...

STR 10
DEX 8
CON 9
INT 16
WIS 13
CHR 14

I don't know about you...but that's still a pretty strong character at age 80. Don't forget he's got INT skill points to make him better at skill checks than he ever was before. In many cases, he can more than compensate for the Stat bonus loss by boosting a particular skill with skill points and feats like Skill Focus. This 80 year old could actually be better at Climbing mountains than he was at his prime at age 25!

Still think that the d20 system handles age appropriately?

So old age and skill beat youth and fitness?

Color me surprised.

My grandfather served in the Army, jumped from planes, shot at soldiers in two theaters of war. He came home and had screwed up his legs... A once pretty solid ballplayer took to the Trades. He kept up with his shooting until the age of 70, and had an encyclopedic knowledge of 'fixing things' from years of it. Could he lift out an A/C assembly or screw around with a rusty bolt? Nope. But he had the skill to tell the big dumb strong kids (and then grandkids, and would have kept it up not doubt with the great-grandkids) how to twist that wrench, or tote that load.

Skill points aren't retroactive, so you're not gaining an overly large amount of them overtime. The old fighter is slower, weaker, and more prone to illness, but has the mental acuity to get himself there until dementia or similar ailments plague him.

Sadly, my grandfather started failing his saves around 80, and I miss him dearly for the fact that he proved age stats well. He was always a bit of a loudmouth (wonder where I got that from?) and a bit of a joker, so not everyone 'got' him. As he mellowed out from his hotheaded days (wrapping up when I was around six or seven) he traded his cycles and Strohs for a nice comfortable living fixing broken electronics and diagnostics equipment and tending his garden. He stayed in shape but age gets us all, but he didn't stop learning until the dice started falling poorly.

When we finally had that last goodbye in the bed he told me all about his crazy life. Things I cannot even dare to repeat lest someone were to read this who knows my handle and it got back to the family . Let us say he led a rich, fighteresque history, and definitely stood the tests of age well. I witnessed him beat a mugger within an inch of his life, throw teenagers by the wayside to help my cousin get out of a hectic idiocy-induced stupor called 'first lust', and kill a crazy new neighbor's insane Chows. He had reported the dogs to the cops after they killed a puppy of one of our neighbors, several farm animals, etc.

A 75 year old man, with an aluminum cane and a pocket knife, proceeded to beat down, stab, and generally open-a-can on two full-sized male bloodthirsty dogs coming after his woman.

I can also squickly attest to his, ahem, constitution scores, and the fact that more than one nurse 40 years his junior proceeded to talk him up while we would take him in for his treatments before his lucidity left him.

The guy may have been built Heroic. Hell, in my eyes he rolled straight 18s. But I'm telling you that I've seen some really tough old dudes and he's just my personal basis. My SO is a nurse and deals with geriatrics as their specialty. I've heard of men his age or older:

a.) Going out for long-ranging hunts in the Smokies, alone, for days and weeks on end,
b.) Climbing up on roofs and shoveling a foot and a half of wet snow without breaking a sweat,
c.) Fend off assailants with various weaponry,
d.) Charm themselves into all sorts of interesting situations.

When I was unemployed for a year after taking a hiatus to tend to the family after his passing I heard even more stories. I also began going to see various individuals, soldiers from WW2 and Korea. I once had the chance before my grandfather's passing to meet Frank Buckles (the 'last survivor' of WW1 in the US) when I was very young, and really have a lot of respect for the old geezers who allowed me to live in the lifestyle I do.

Old fighters are rare, but when they live their big GM in the sky sure as hell gives them excellent Point Buy

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Water Bob]

So old age and skill beat youth and fitness?

Color me surprised.

Are you actually defending that an 80 year old fighter can Climb mountains better then he did in his prime at age 25?

Wow.

 

[Water Bob]

Maybe this will help...

Experience is tied to age, but one must also look a the quality of that experience. How long does it take a character to gain one experience point? Well, that depends on the quality of the experience. Two identical characters will grow at a different rate under different circumstances. Take two 19 year old identical twins during Vietnam. One is stationed in Germany. The other goes to Vietnam and serves a Tour of Duty.

And, remember, we're playing a combat focussed game.

Thus, the character on the front lines will grow in level quicker than the character who had garrison duty for the entire year.



For argument's sake, let's define three types of expereince.

High Experience (this is the type PCs normally get, going from adventure to adventure, with lots of intense action).

Level Experience (this is the type prominent NPCs get--not as strong as what most PCs get, but still much stronger than the alternative).

Low Experience (this is slow type of experience that a farmer or a baker would get in a safe environment).



Most characters don't find themselves in many situations that warrant anything other than Low Experience. A character who spends his entire life gaining Low Experience will die before he reaches 4th level--simply because there is no way he can accumulate more experience. Most people are like this, thus most people are 1st or 2nd level, with the occasional 3rd level thrown in.

Then there are characters are a cut above the masses. These are typically prominent NPCs. These characters find themselves as leaders among their peers. These characters are gain Level Experience most of the time, and the Chart in the OP should be used for these types of characters.

Finally, there's characters that receive High Experience. These are typically PCs but can also be major NPCs. These characters grow faster than what is presented on the Chart and have the best chance of attaining very high levels during their lifetimes.




Let's take a 42 year old human.

If he's a Farmer, then we consider that Low Experience, and we make him a 2nd level Commoner (Farmer).

A 42 year old human that gains Level Experience would be about 5th level and won't, on average, attain 6th level for another 14 years.

Finall, there's a 42 year old major NPC. This character can be, really, anything the GM decides, because this character has gathered XP in the same way as the player characters.



Maybe that, combined with the OP, makes more sense for some of you?

 

[Loonook]

Are you actually defending that an 80 year old fighter can Climb mountains better then he did in his prime at age 25?

Wow.

As you ignored the rest of my post.. Yes and No. Slower? Not per D&D but per life yes. With more knowledge? Yes. Sherpas into their elder years are found, and as I said I have had people in their seventies hunting in mountain and hill country. I mean for actual strength purposes they have lost 3 levels worth of skill bonus. If they make and handle tracks, train animals, shoo their bow or rifle, and just LEARN for 60-70 years they're going to by D&D and any level-based system be better than or equal to a man of a much younger age. The only loss is going to be in their ability to dodge foes, hit harder, and a bit of accuracy.. Which may never be regained.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Water Bob]

As you ignored the rest of my post.. Yes and No. Slower? Not per D&D but per life yes.

Just because I didn't quote the rest of your post doesn't mean I didn't read it. I just think it sufficient to quote the part I did.

You can probably find an exception to everything if you look through out history, but we're talking in generalities here. And to say that an 80 year old man can climb faster and farther than he did when he was in his physical prime at 25, regardless of his extra knowledge, is completely crazy. And, more than that, it's not true.

And, because it's not true, it proves the d20 rules do not handle normal aging effects properly.

 

[Loonook]

Just because I didn't quote the rest of your post doesn't mean I didn't read it. I just think it sufficient to quote the part I did.

You can probably find an exception to everything if you look through out history, but we're talking in generalities here. And to say that an 80 year old man can climb faster and farther than he did when he was in his physical prime at 25, regardless of his extra knowledge, is completely crazy. And, more than that, it's not true.

And, because it's not true, it proves the d20 rules do not handle normal aging effects properly.

Yes, because I didn't list personally half a dozen individuals who I have known who have done it.

Of course, old people cannot use skills...

And also, what is the benefit of youth in d20 beyond the basic bonuses?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I don't really want to become entangled in this but I have to ask, why did you choose climbing which is predominantly Physical in it's nature. Assume a grandfather who studied Geology and has toured the world studying all types of terrain and natural disasters.

would he be bettered by a younger guy because he is physically weaker, no but I do agree that the climber would not be as good as when he was 25, the poster's argument was great until the last line where he said that. Fighters rely on physical attributes which decline with age, academics rely on mental attributes which don't decline with age.

I agree with the OP because in a Human centered world it is very useful but I do agree that in a world with different races each with different lifespans it is difficult to use.

I think the main thing that is overlooked is that a Human and an Elf who chop wood for a living, the Elf has 100 years Exp and the Human 10 years Exp both are level 2 because advancing to that point is easy, beyond their requires challenges worthy of you abilities. Exp shouldn't be gained from killing level 1 Goblins when you have reached level 2 (an example, not a fact), Lifetime experience isn't better because you have lived long it is about quality over quantity

 

[Water Bob]

I don't really want to become entangled in this but I have to ask, why did you choose climbing which is predominantly Physical in it's nature.

I chose the Climb skill because it easily shows the fault in the system. It crazy to assume an 80 year old man can do better on a Kilimanjaro climb than the same person could in his prime at age 25.

There's really no disputing that (unless you're Loonook and know half a dozen 80 year olds that wear capes and have a huge "S" on their chests). It shows how the d20 system does not handle age well as Loonook suggests.

I agree with the OP because in a Human centered world it is very useful but I do agree that in a world with different races each with different lifespans it is difficult to use.

I don't know, but off the top of my head: Couldn't you take the OP and simply translate the ages to whatever race you're thinking of? For example, figure out where the elf equivalent might be and just use that--not unlike the aging table in the PHB.

So...Level 4+ represents Middle Age, and Level 7+ represents Old Age. Use that as a starting point and figure in the other levels...boom, there's a good chart to use for any race, human or otherwise.

Just a thought.







A poster earlier in the thread had a good comment. He said that he couldn't understand how an 100 year old elf could be lower level than a 35 year old human (paraphrase).

I think that's a good question.

Lifetime experience isn't better because you have lived long it is about quality over quantity

I have a post a couple up the thread that discusses the quality of experience. And, you're right. It's not just age that correlates with your level. It's also the type of experienced gained during that time.

See my Vietnam example in the previous post. Two identical Army characters, but one sent to Germany, spending his time stationed at the garrison, the other during a full tour in the crap in Vietnam, and you've got two different types of experience for each character after a year.

Also remember that we're playing a game and setting mechanics to this game. Therefore, certain aspects of living are in focus for the game. Typically in an RPG, combat is the focus. So, combat related experience is usually paramount.

But let's say the game we're playing is actually focussed on politics rather than combat. It's an RPG that uses a lot of social skills. There is no combat. And, the conflict in the game comes from winning arguments and elections (I didn't say it would be a fun game--just making a point).

Now, all of a sudden, our character who was stationed in Germany during the Vietnam war has better experience than the other character because, in Germany, the character became aid to the Base Commander.

With most RPGs, though, Combat is the focus.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Now, all of a sudden, our character who was stationed in Germany during the Vietnam war has better experience than the other character because, in Germany, the character became aid to the Base Commander.

Previously it was posted that being 35 does not automatically make you level 5, it means you have 15 levels of Exp, if you have spent 15 years in a box then you are level 1, if you have spent 15 years fighting to the death day-to-day in an alien jungle then you going to be much higher.

so the guy in Germany would be level 1 (maybe level 2), the guy in Vietnam would be 3 maybe 4