New cleric system?

[Savage Wombat]

A lot of people have suggested that they'd like to see, say, Wizards and Psionicists (and warlocks, etc.) use different casting systems so that they feel, mechanically, like different classes.

No one seems to have suggested where clerics fit into this.

Conceptually, why should clerics have to prepare spells like a wizard? Should they get their own unique spell-casting model that better reflects praying to their god?

Anyone?

Bueller?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Wizards kind of need to prepare spells, but I would be quite happy if clerics didn't. I actually think they would work well off a warlock-y model; a small number of fun things they could do at will, although I think an extensive ritual system would also be necessary. Turning/smiting/laying on hands would all make very nice abilities if they were on the same platform as everything else the cleric did.

I don't really know how prayer should work, but it seems to me that in dire circumstances, clerics should have a very open-ended ability that's rarely used, reflective of what their god might give them if they're worthy and they pray hard.

That said, I doubt it'll all happen. We'll probably have Vancian clerics to satisfy the traditionalists. Hopefully, alternate casting systems will be easily portable.

 

[SKyOdin]

I agree that Clerics should be mechanically different than Wizards in a game system that gives a wide variety of spell and power mechanics. This is doubly true since divine magic is so conceptually different from arcane magic. However, since the two have been so similar over the years, it is difficult to find a new way for Clerics to function. I do have some ideas though...

One thing that I like about the 4E Warpriest (the Essentials version of the Cleric) is that it has a very clear pattern to its powers: it has a lot of Daily Powers that give persistent, encounter-long benefits. Almost all of its utility powers fit the pattern as well. The idea of persistent benefits strikes me as being very appropriate for the Cleric.

Where as the Wizard uses a lot of instantaneous powers, such as fireballs, teleports, and so on, the Cleric could primarily focus on sustained effects. These could include:
-creating a holy circle that undead cannot cross
-blessing the entire party with divine protection
-summoning an angel to fight alongside his teammates
-animating a stone golem
-giving the entire party regeneration

Thinking about this idea, it ties into the idea that the cleric "channels" divine power. Perhaps we could say that the cleric serves as a conduit of sorts for divine energy. The cleric can thus draw upon that divine energy to maintain his effects indefinitely, but is limited in power by the capacity, or bandwidth, of this conduit.

Building on this line of thought, perhaps the cleric is not limited to using his powers a certain number of times per day like the Wizard. Rather, he can use his powers at any time, but is limited to only one persistent effect at a time. Thus, the cleric would have incredible versatility and power, but has to choose how he applies that power carefully based on the situation.

Of course, what powers are available to the cleric might vary based on domains, or some other mechanics.

 

[BobTheNob]

I have often thought this. Clerics being just mages in armor with different spell lists is so same-same.

I prefer something like him being a spiritual backbone that administers to the faith of his fellow members i.e. passive buffing in a mundane manner through the sterngth of his conviction.

Then, when the ^&$% hits the fan, he calls on his god to intervene, but contantly doing so brings ire for using his gods name in vain (i.e. penatence required, with passive faith bonus's dimishing with increase use).

Kinda like the "Moses" figure. The more important role was giving his people faith, but when the time came? Well, he parted oceans and called down columns of fire!!! Spells, nah. Divine Intervention I say. Doesnt call on it very often, but when he does, its scary.

Well, that my idea on the whiteboard.

 

[BobTheNob]

Building on this line of thought, perhaps the cleric is not limited to using his powers a certain number of times per day like the Wizard. Rather, he can use his powers at any time, but is limited to only one persistent effect at a time. Thus, the cleric would have incredible versatility and power, but has to choose how he applies that power carefully based on the situation.

Im sort of along the lines that Gods motivations need to be very well understood as part of playing a cleric. When a power is used it MUST be in terms of being in line with this motivation. You cant have a cleric for a "God of the harvest" Flamestriking a village just because he can memorise 5th level spells!

Its like the spell powers they get come from the god, so WHY does the player get to dictate them. I would like something where
* Is the power in line with the gods ethos
* Is the player spamming powers? Gods like followers who can fix things for themselves, not whinny little "help me help me" followers
* Is the player in dire need, or just can be bothered finding an adequate solution other than getting his god to serve his purpose? After all doesnt the cleric serve the god and not vice-versa?

Then, after its sorted itself out, the DM decides the manner of intervention. Sure, the cleric made the prayer (rolls can be made, with player level e.t.c. taken into consideration) but whether the result is the Liche turning to ash or something less spectacular like a onion falling on his head...well...thats up to the god. Maybe even a roll on a chart based on cleric faith levels.

After that, forget resourceing it in traditional "memorisation" or mana models. Just "Is it justified" and "Is the cleric pushing his luck"

 

[SKyOdin]

Then, after its sorted itself out, the DM decides the manner of intervention. Sure, the cleric made the prayer (rolls can be made, with player level e.t.c. taken into consideration) but whether the result is the Liche turning to ash or something less spectacular like a onion falling on his head...well...thats up to the god. Maybe even a roll on a chart based on cleric faith levels.

I would disagree. I think the basic necessities of the game dictate that the player should be able to choose what powers they use. I think taking that control away from the player would be to the detriment of the game.

Flavor wise, by very virtue of the fact that the character is a proper priest who can channel the divine power of a god indicates two things: 1) The priest is in the good graces of a divine power and both has that divine power's trust and has faith in that divine entity. 2) The priest has a detailed understanding of the religious prayers, rituals, and offerings necessary to make a specific request of his divine patron. As such, I think it is completely justified for a cleric to be able to choose the divine spells they invoke.

I can see the argument for letting the DM pick an effect from a table if it was the case of a random non-cleric making offerings at a shrine and begging for aid, but not a member of the cleric class using their primary abilities.

 

[Kingreaper]

I like the idea of clerics having two ability types: Blessings and Miracles.

Blessings are at-will or encounter abilities, ways the cleric is blessed and can pass it on.
Generally relatively minor.
If a healing surges are in, granting the use of a surge would be a blessing. A Pelorite having a bonus to defenses against undead would be a blessing. An aura of hope would be a blessing.

Miracles would be their "dailies". They'd get far fewer miracles than a wizard had spells, but miracles would be very potent; and you would never have to prepare them.
There are a list of pre-approved miracles by level in the PHB, but if the GM will allow it you can ask your god for a unique miracle suiting the situation.
Just because the god/GM grants you a particular miracle once though, doesn't mean they'll do so again. If it's impact was bigger than intended, you may have to choose something else.

Miracles would include, depending on your level, things like: Surgeless healing/restoration of surges (actually healing physical wounds), resurrection, parting the red sea, Turn Undead and other powerful effects.

 

[trancejeremy]

I actually thought it made sense for Clerics, since the concept of daily or regular prayers is pretty common. Vespers, for instance.

Pray at night, get spells when you wake up in the morning. Because frankly, I don't think the Cleric's deity is going to be watching their every moment and give them spells or miracles (whatever you call them) on demand.

 

[kitsune9]

Here's my system if I was design a system. A cleric has several different types of magics available to her--blessings, litanies, rebukes, and rituals.

Blessings are the lowest and easily most available kind of magic a cleric has. They are simple prayers to invoke a blessing upon the cleric or her allies. Present a holy symbol and utter a blessing. This is curative magic, buff spells, and similar protection magic. Bless, protection from evil, cure light wounds are examples.

Litanies are more powerful prayers. They are quoted directly from the order's scriptures or their "bible". The litany must be read even if the cleric can quote it from memory. This provides attack spells. Flame strike and blade barrier are examples that I'm thinking of.

Rebukes are curses and damnation litanies. Turning undead, smiting, and similar spells that require an attack are examples. The cleric's holy symbol and weapon in hand is required for this.

Rituals are done in special chambers, holy sites, require expensive sacrificies, long meditation, and reading of litanies from saints or devoted scholars that is considered sacrosanct within the Church's order. They are long and costly and invoke the most powerful magic the god can provide to his followers. Raise dead, resurrection, miracle, etc are examples.

A cleric starts out with a number of blessings. A cleric can invoke as many as she wants or has a large number within any given day. As the cleric gains levels, this number increases and they gain access to litanies, rebukes and ultimately, rituals. The limits placed on a cleric is not so much as "fire and forget" but in that their god is only able to infuse so much of its power in such a weak vessel. If he was to give more, the cleric would explode or burn from the godly power.

 

[Oni]

If I was designing the cleric from the ground up I would probably allow them a small selection of at will and always on abilities that made sense with regard to the deity the worshiped, and then let them have more of the situational stuff as rituals of cleansing and the like, but be able to pull those out instantly as miracles on a very limited basis.

However, given the weight of history, I don't think that is possible on a practical level, it would simply be making the Cleric too foreign from what it has always been and would upset quite a few more people that it would probably be worth doing.