D&D 4E 4E is the Right Direction for 5E

[ren1999]

4E is the right direction for beginner players.
But 4E needs to have more complex rules for advanced players.
Pathfinder does a few things right. But Pathfinder is hundreds of pages of material. The Pathfinder learning curve for each spell is very steep. Lightning Bolt does 8d6 at 8th level? Imbalanced.

But 4E has too many powers that are almost the same. It has too many feats that are similar to powers. It needs to consolidate all of that and come up with template powers.

Utilities and Rituals must have some kind of encounter combat application. It all needs to be grouped with the combat powers somehow.

Triggered, reaction, opportunity actions should all fall under triggered actions.

4E Fortitude, Reflex and Will Defense are actually good, much better than the save DCs of Pathfinder. I was thinking that just the ability modifiers could be directly used but Intelligence versus Intelligence sounds confusing.

I'm leaning more and more toward 4E. Let's get rid of the redundancy.

The monsters have too many hit points and are too overpowered. Actually play testing the encounters from Dungeon magazine always necessitates altering the hit points power or raising weapon damage higher. Gamma World actually said to add the characters level to the damage.

There needs to be a full page devoted to the DM altering monster stats so that a 1st level or 30th level monster can be used in a 4th level adventure. This would make Orcs relevant threats and Dragons not too strong to destroy the entire party in just a few rounds.

 

[Iosue]

4E is the right direction for beginner players.

I'm a big 4e fan, but I'm going to disagree with that premise right off the bat.

 

[mkill]

4E is the right direction for beginner players.
But 4E needs to have more complex rules for advanced players.
Pathfinder does a few things right. But Pathfinder is hundreds of pages of material. The Pathfinder learning curve for each spell is very steep.

4E is more accessible for beginners, which is a very GOOD thing and needs to be kept in 5E, and even improved. Bringing in new players is the only way for pen & paper gaming to survive.

However, if you think that 4E is not as complex as other editions and variants, you're wrong. The complexity is just different. 3E/PF complexity is from obfuscation and system mastery. 4Es complexity is in the interaction of different classes and powers in tactical combat.

Lightning Bolt does 8d6 at 8th level? Imbalanced.

Yeah, imbalanced against Haste, Summon Monster III and all his other toys. An 8th level Wizard who thinks Lightning Bolt is his most powerful spell is wrong

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

. The Pathfinder learning curve for each spell is very steep. Lightning Bolt does 8d6 at 8th level? Imbalanced.

That word, I'm not sure you know what it means.

 

[mkill]

Utilities and Rituals must have some kind of encounter combat application. It all needs to be grouped with the combat powers somehow.

Rather the opposite. 4E had too little in the way of rituals and utilities that are useful for exploration and social interaction.

Triggered, reaction, opportunity actions should all fall under triggered actions.

Yes.

The monsters have too many hit points and are too overpowered. Actually play testing the encounters from Dungeon magazine always necessitates altering the hit points power or raising weapon damage higher. Gamma World actually said to add the characters level to the damage.

Depends. If you have a large party (6 or more) or well-optimized, experienced, team-playing and damage-focused PCs it works.
But if I would write 5E, I would keep damage levels around (non-optimized) 4E, but reduce hit points of monsters and DMs. I think it's easier to tell DMs to increase monster hitpoints if they think fights are too quick, rather than the other way around. (just psychologically)

There needs to be a full page devoted to the DM altering monster stats so that a 1st level or 30th level monster can be used in a 4th level adventure. This would make Orcs relevant threats and Dragons not too strong to destroy the entire party in just a few rounds.

Look in your DMG, both 3E and 4E have that.
Oh, and Dragons absolutely should be able to wreck a party in a few rounds. Tradition.

 

[the Jester]

4E is the right direction for beginner players.

I'm with Iosue- I love 4e but strongly disagree with you.

Basic D&D is the right direction for beginners.

But 4E needs to have more complex rules for advanced players.

It does, but I thougth we were talking about 5e.

Pathfinder does a few things right. But Pathfinder is hundreds of pages of material. The Pathfinder learning curve for each spell is very steep. Lightning Bolt does 8d6 at 8th level? Imbalanced.

Ignoring the fact that every edition of D&D since 1e has been hundreds of pages of material, you don't need to know that lightning bolt does 5d6 if you're 5th level, 6d6 if you're 6th level, 7d6 if you're 7th level, etc. if you know that it does 1d6/caster level.

But 4E has too many powers that are almost the same. It has too many feats that are similar to powers.

Agreed!

It needs to consolidate all of that and come up with template powers.

It rather needs to make all that stuff completely optional and reduce option overload by an order of magnitude.

Utilities and Rituals must have some kind of encounter combat application. It all needs to be grouped with the combat powers somehow.

No thank you. 4e is already too centered on the combat encounter.

Triggered, reaction, opportunity actions should all fall under triggered actions.

...or be largely excised.

4E Fortitude, Reflex and Will Defense are actually good, much better than the save DCs of Pathfinder. I was thinking that just the ability modifiers could be directly used but Intelligence versus Intelligence sounds confusing.

The assertion that Fort, Ref and Will are better as defenses than as saves is arguable. I think it's a wash, with a slight edge- VERY slight- to defenses.

The monsters have too many hit points and are too overpowered. Actually play testing the encounters from Dungeon magazine always necessitates altering the hit points power or raising weapon damage higher. Gamma World actually said to add the characters level to the damage.

Different game, different style (WAHOO!). In general, monsters post-MM3 are great.

There needs to be a full page devoted to the DM altering monster stats so that a 1st level or 30th level monster can be used in a 4th level adventure. This would make Orcs relevant threats and Dragons not too strong to destroy the entire party in just a few rounds.

An orcish grunt shouldn't be a threat to a 30th level party at all. There are far better ways of solving this problem- and it all starts with flattening the math from a mountain to a gentle slope.

 

[Tallifer]

4E is the right direction for beginner players.

Yes, but only if the Character Builder provides a way to filter down the feat choices to a reasonable number.

But 4E needs to have more complex rules for advanced players.
Pathfinder does a few things right. But Pathfinder is hundreds of pages of material. The Pathfinder learning curve for each spell is very steep. Lightning Bolt does 8d6 at 8th level? Imbalanced.

The Fourth Edition currently has about forty books. About twenty classes and thirty races. The combat and skill rules take up as much space as they ever did in the Third Edition. The options available are dizzying.

But 4E has too many powers that are almost the same. It has too many feats that are similar to powers. It needs to consolidate all of that and come up with template powers. Utilities and Rituals must have some kind of encounter combat application. It all needs to be grouped with the combat powers somehow.

There are definitely too many feats and powers in the Fourth Edition: they need to be consolidated and even more balanced. Most utility spells are already designed for combat situations. And Rituals are for all the situational spells or for spells much too powerful to allow in combat. Rituals are excellent as they are now.

Triggered, reaction, opportunity actions should all fall under triggered actions.

They all happen in reaction to certain triggers/circumstances. It would be nice to organize them together on the same pages, but no need to change their mechanics.

The monsters have too many hit points and are too overpowered. Actually play testing the encounters from Dungeon magazine always necessitates altering the hit points power or raising weapon damage higher. Gamma World actually said to add the characters level to the damage.

There needs to be a full page devoted to the DM altering monster stats so that a 1st level or 30th level monster can be used in a 4th level adventure. This would make Orcs relevant threats and Dragons not too strong to destroy the entire party in just a few rounds.

There are already well written rules and guidelines for adjusting monster levels. And the Monster Manuals and adventures already provide a huge variety of the same monsters at different levels. There must be a bazillion dragons from easy wyrmlings to terrifying elder dragons of every colour and ability.

 

[S'mon]

I think 4e is incredibly tough on new players. There is exactly one build of one class that IME the typical new player can handle ok, and that is the 4e PHB Ranger Archer -it doesn't take much to say "Twin Strike!" when your turn comes up. Seeing new players trying to cope with Leader classes is painful, and Controllers aren't much better. You'd think Essentials Knights & Slayers ought to work, but IME the Stance mechanic is non-intuitive and confusing, far moreso than PHB Powers. And all the melee Strikers are really hard to make survivable.

 

[Raith5]

I like 4th ed but I dont think the ease/difficulty of the system was ever a major issue or problem.

The bigger issues was that the starting point of characters was a fair bit more powerful/heroic than previous editions. There was the widely held impression that combat was a bigger part of the game (which I dont think is necessarily true). So the whole game made problematic assumptions about which playstyles appeared to be supported.

There were also key races and classes missing from the 4th PH that proved to be a major problem. Even then some classes strayed from their traditional feel - esp Druid, Barbarian, etc.

 

[El Mahdi]

4E is the right direction for beginner players.

Basic D&D is the right direction for beginners.

I agree and disagree with both of you.

I think a core more like BD&D is probably the way to go, but I would like to see some 4E'esque elements built into it - like one or two basic pre-set Feat or Power like elements at each level. Ones that catch the basic flavor of a class, but make character creation simple because they're built-in.