Something Awful leak.

[Reflex]

Everything you said here (in slightly different terms) is the problem with 4e-style conditions.

In 4e, a monster does something, and the PC is shaken. The power doesn't say what shaken means, so you have to dig up the PHB and look it up.

I think what the designer was saying about the hypothetical "power word stun" is that it would say "stun," and then it would describe what being stunned means. So you would still have the keyword, and there would still be a list of them somewhere, but you don't have to look it up every time, as the definition would be right there.

Hopefully.

Then again, monster spell lists without effect descriptions are back too, so I'm not sure that user-friendliness is the core driver at work here. I'd like to think we can attribute these sorts of ad hoc status decriptions to the very unfinished state of the rules. Hopefully those will get tightened up and standardized before release if they haven't already, so we know for certain whether 'Remove Stun' applies to Power Word:Stun, Stunning Fist targets, and characters struck by a stone giant club with an effect description noting the stricken character 'reels, drops his/her weapon, and is unable to act until his/her next action'.

Hopefully.

 

[Incenjucar]

4E-style conditions were pretty easy to memorize. The rules for Darkvision are more complex.

--

4E is getting new content from WotC still, it's just slowing down and likely to end once 5E is available. When it's dead to WotC, then the fans will step in. This will happen with 5E, too, and the story will be the same once 6E comes out. No big deal. 4E is a fantastic, easy-to-work system, so I expect the big issue will be organizing all the indie content.

 

[Piratecat]

4E-style conditions were pretty easy to memorize.

You won't hear me complain if they get simplified. I think 4e has too many conditions, personally. I'm sure not everyone agrees with that, but there are only a dozen we seem to use regularly.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Dude, are you serious? 4e is as dead a system - meaning supported by new product by the parent company - as OD&D, Basic, AD&D, 2nd Ed., 3.0, or 3.5.

But isn't 5e the anti-death edition? You'll be able to play it like BECMI, 1e/2e, 3e or 4e, depending upon which options you use. So product for 5e will, in a sense, be product for all these editions. Thus, no editions are dead.

 

[Incenjucar]

Surprised, Blinded, Deafened, Dying, Helpless, and Unconscious kind of need to be defined in any system. The rest you could argue for one way or another. Really, one of the main things is making sure that things don't stack too much; named conditions can only be applied once, but random situational penalties might stack, even if they mostly mean the same thing.

 

[n00bdragon]

Everything you said here (in slightly different terms) is the problem with 4e-style conditions.

In 4e, a monster does something, and the PC is shaken. The power doesn't say what shaken means, so you have to dig up the PHB and look it up.

I think what the designer was saying about the hypothetical "power word stun" is that it would say "stun," and then it would describe what being stunned means. So you would still have the keyword, and there would still be a list of them somewhere, but you don't have to look it up every time, as the definition would be right there.

Hopefully.

Except Shaken isn't a status effect in 4e. I wouldn't knock it till you've tried it. The advantage of having a small number of status effects that aren't re-explained in every entry is... that they aren't re-explained in every entry. When an mummy stuns you and when dragon stuns you and when an evil wizard stuns you it ALWAYS works the same way. That's not something to look down on. Once you learn how the basic conditions work there's no need to look up anything, ever. This is the power of keywords.

Even 3.5 learned this lesson. I will be sorely disappointed if 5e throws out this progress. Sadly it looks like all the progress that has been made in 3e and 4e and even some made in 2e is being discarded purely to appeal to a tiny subset of gamers.

 

[KarinsDad]

Then again, monster spell lists without effect descriptions are back too, so I'm not sure that user-friendliness is the core driver at work here. I'd like to think we can attribute these sorts of ad hoc status decriptions to the very unfinished state of the rules. Hopefully those will get tightened up and standardized before release if they haven't already, so we know for certain whether 'Remove Stun' applies to Power Word:Stun, Stunning Fist targets, and characters struck by a stone giant club with an effect description noting the stricken character 'reels, drops his/her weapon, and is unable to act until his/her next action'.

Hopefully.

Actually, I am ok with this as a possibility. It's just cool if the monster can trot out Power Word Kill, just like the PC can (note: assuming PWK does one of those fails 3 saves and dies things instead of fails 1 save and dies thing).

Specifically, I want Demons, Devils, and Dragons to be casting spells (and nasty ones at that), not just using abilities/powers. In fact, I'm ok with default spells for these types of creatures, but the DM should be told that this creature has 3 first level spells, 2 second, and a third so that the DM can switch it up if he wants to go to that level of effort.

But if WotC does allow some monsters to be casting spells AND doesn't list out the entire spell with the monster, I sure as heck want most if not all of those spells to be in the PHB AND I want the PHB page number of the spell to be in the monster description so that I as DM can go find it quickly. Additionally, if I print that monster from an online tool, I want that spell to be printed out along with the monster. Having just the spell name and page number is ok in a printed Monster Manual to save space and get more monsters listed in it, but it's dumb to not take advantage of technology with online tools.


One would think, however, that the vast majority of monsters don't need to be casting spells. In those cases, it's ok to give them special abilities and have the entire special ability described right in the monster description.

But I don't think that the game designers should shunt out an entire aspect of monster design, namely, having monsters with spells. In fact, the game designers should expand upon monsters abilities and have some monsters have PC powers/abilities as well as spells. It's real nasty when the Troll does Come and Get It and the jaws of your players drop. (bwa ha ha)

 

[Incenjucar]

Monsters using spells and other class powers is covered in the 4E DMG. Page 182 "Class Templates."

I can't imagine WotC would back away from that for 5E.

 

[catastrophic]

I read GX.Sigma as suggesting a system where effects are noted and explained in the monster refrence space, but also standardized. That would be ideal, but there also needs to be fewer conditions, and a better way of managing them.

However, that doesn't seem to be the direction 5e is heading in, and the fact that on day one they pull out the 3e condition list for refrence, is not a good sign.

Again, this is the kind of thing they should be working out or at least testing from the beginning- instead they're just going back to the old ways of doing things, and ignoring the issue.

Has these even been a poll, or anything about conditions? I can't remember one at all. I guess it's too much of a 4e-refrencing issue, and WOTC has clearly decided that that is the Edition Wich Must Not be Named.

 

[KarinsDad]

Monsters using spells and other class powers is covered in the 4E DMG. Page 182 "Class Templates."

I can't imagine WotC would back away from that for 5E.

How many DMs have you known that used those on any consistent basis?

I used it a total of twice in 3 years (ironically, both times for Dragons).


In fact, this is a prime example of a "game module" in 4E. One that rarely gets used because it is too much of a hassle. I suspect that if 5E game modules are set up like this one is, that they will be too much of a hassle in 5E as well and people will rarely see these types of modules used.

What we might see instead is a 5E core system, some game elements such as classes as add on modules that will be used because they will be plug and play, and some other add on modules such as "spellcasting for monsters" like the 4E plug in that almost never gets used because it is not plug and play.