Scaling: How many level 1 characters should it take to defeat a level 10 character?

[GreyICE]

Double post

 

[GreyICE]

I voted more than 16.

In 3.x, it would take approximately 24 EL 1's to equal an EL 10. (That's a basic calculation, 3.x EL math can get a bit more complicated when you add additional factors).

Ignoring EL, just looking at HP ... the level 10 fighter in 3.x has probably 10x the hp of the level 1 fighter and greater AC/saves. So durability is >10x.

The greater accuracy, damage, and attacks per round of the 10th level fighter probably also indicates a >10x damage per round performance.

So it looks like durability and damager per round are both greater than 10x for a level 10 fighter versus a level 1.

Yeah but the actual answer in 3e is the wizard flies 40 feet in the air, invisible, and blasts the lot into craters, before heading home for a nice spot of tea. 24 level 1s might challenge a level 10 fighter, if only because fighters are terrible, but I tend to doubt it.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, I remember a thread some time back where we did a thought experiment pitting 1 million level 5 PC's vs a 20th level wizard lich. You could make a reasonable argument for the lich winning the confrontation.

 

[Buugipopuu]

Heh, I remember a thread some time back where we did a thought experiment pitting 1 million level 5 PC's vs a 20th level wizard lich. You could make a reasonable argument for the lich winning the confrontation.

The million level fives all get into groups of 125 and draw lots. Those who win in each group of 125 kill all the remaining level 5s, earning enough experience to level up to level 13 (at which point they stop earning experience from killing level 5s). The level 13s all get into groups of 125 and repeat the process. This handily brings them all up to level 20. There were 64 groups in the second stage. I think, if my experience calculations work.

I suspect 64 20th level characters, even with whatever gear they can cobble together from all the 5th level PC gear they have, will probably own a 20th level Wizard Lich. You can probably optimise the process further to increase the proportion of the starting million that survive. I believe if you stop at 16th level, 320 survive, and I wouldn't bet on one 20th level Wizard Lich against 320 16th level characters.

EDIT: It's also possible to optimise further, as you can choose not to level up even if you have earned enough experience to do so, but I can't be bothered to do the maths to work out the best way to do that.

 

[Hussar]

The million level fives all get into groups of 125 and draw lots. Those who win in each group of 125 kill all the remaining level 5s, earning enough experience to level up to level 13 (at which point they stop earning experience from killing level 5s). The level 13s all get into groups of 125 and repeat the process. This handily brings them all up to level 20. There were 64 groups in the second stage. I think, if my experience calculations work.

I suspect 64 20th level characters, even with whatever gear they can cobble together from all the 5th level PC gear they have, will probably own a 20th level Wizard Lich. You can probably optimise the process further to increase the proportion of the starting million that survive. I believe if you stop at 16th level, 320 survive, and I wouldn't bet on one 20th level Wizard Lich against 320 16th level characters.

EDIT: It's also possible to optimise further, as you can choose not to level up even if you have earned enough experience to do so, but I can't be bothered to do the maths to work out the best way to do that.

Yup, there's nothing like completely shifting the goalposts AND missing the point of the exercise to make my day complete.

See, yes, I am entirely aware that if you change the levels of the combatants, you get to the point where the attackers win. No kidding. However, the point of the exercise is to show that with a very large level disparity, casters aren't playing the same game at all. They're Doctor Manhattan facing the Viet Cong and winning single handedly.

 

[GreyICE]

I dunno, does the wizard know those level 20s are coming?

Assuming he's done any sort of scrying, a million strong army will most likely be known to the wizard. Therefore, it's most likely that he's got time to prepare. Also, they've got to be low on magical items.

Therefore he can Genesis a flowing time plane before they arrive, giving him nigh-unlimited amounts of time to prepare. He could gate in things to kill for experience, but we'll assume it's capped at 20.

Now what he can do is cast Explosive runes, and prepare the Haunt Shift trick. So now he has a hardness of over 100, and the entire area is blanketed with explosive runes. Since 1 year = 1 day, that should be easily several thousand casts of explosive runes. He will cast this on 400 books (10-20 casts per).

Then he took 10 levels of Incantrix (he did Prestige class, right?). If not, he prepares wands and other magical artifacts until he rewinds himself back to level 10, and uses prepared Gate scrolls and wands of Gate to summon Balors and other high XP monsters, which he then easily kills with the magical artifacts to wander back up to 20.

The purpose of Incantrix was for one lone trick. He teleports into the middle of the group of level 20s. Now, some of them will win on initiative. But there's very little you can do in one round to a Haunt Shifted Wizard. Objects are immune to SODs, and with hardness that high very little will do damage. He's almost certain to get a single round.

That single round consists of quickened persistent Time Stop.

Now with 24 hours of time stop, he goes around handing people their book of explosive runes. He then casts dispel magic as many times as needed (using wands if need be) until every book is dispelled.

Finally he genesis flowing time plane rests until he gets all his spells back.

Now when the time stop fades, some of the level 20s may survive, thanks mostly to Uncanny dodge. But they'll be rogues/barbarians, and thus unable to hurt a Haunt Shifted Wizard. With all of his spells, he can pick them off whenever he wants to.

 

[Buugipopuu]

Any trick the Lich can pull off, the 64 survivors can too. And they'll be able to do it better, because they'll have a variety of Wizard prestige classes (if there aren't 64 Wizards among the initial million, I'd be very surprised). Letting anyone but full casters be in the surviving 64 would be a terrible plan.

 

[Hussar]

Any trick the Lich can pull off, the 64 survivors can too. And they'll be able to do it better, because they'll have a variety of Wizard prestige classes (if there aren't 64 Wizards among the initial million, I'd be very surprised). Letting anyone but full casters be in the surviving 64 would be a terrible plan.

Well, that nicely encapsulates what's wrong with 3e in a nutshell right there doesn't it?

Either be a high level caster or stay home.

 

[Buugipopuu]

Only if you choose to play like that. Once the words "Flowing Time Trait" "Haunt Shift Trick" and "Persistent Time Stop" show up, you're already outside of the realm of things a DM would actually allow, and into theoretical optimisation.

 

[Hussar]

Again, you're missing the entire point of the exercise.

1. The only way to actually challenge the lich is to change the situation. The 5th level combatants simply cannot win. No matter their numbers. The only way for them to win is to go Order of the Stick and have them cannibalize each other to the point where they can actually compete.

And

2. The only real challenges come from casters. Go caster or go home. Pretty damning condemnation of the system right there.

So, basically, you've got a system where high level casters are essentially gods. Nothing can reach them except for other gods.

Is this the kind of scaling we want in the system?