D&D 3E/3.5 Why the change in DR from 3.0 to 3.5

[TanisFrey]

I think it was a big improvement. Sorry.

In two ways the 3.5 DR was an improvement.
1) Special metals could not be overridden by +1 weapons that the 3.0 system had.
2) Aligned weapons were added.

How ever the 3.5 DR magic was stupid. A 3.0 dragon could take on a an army and not worries about getting damaged by archers. A 3.5 dragon cannot take on the army because the archer whom stick around will be given magic arrows in 50 arrow bundles by that 3rd level mage or cleric.

They should have keep the DR XX/+X and separated the special materials plus adding in the alignments.

 

[LiL KiNG]

It would interesting to know how many weapons you'd actually have carry in order to be prepared for every single monster (from published books).

Pretty much just one Metalline (MIC) weapon of your choice will cover nearly all DR types.

Metalline is a +2 enchantment (meaning your weapon is already +1 or better for bypassing DR/Magic) and it allows your weapon to function as alchemical silver, adamantine, cold iron or plain steel as a command action.

Or even better there is a +3 enchantment from Tome of Magic, Shadow Striking, and it would allow your weapon to take on any properties it needed after striking a creature to overcome any DR type the creature may have.

 

[Vegepygmy]

A 3.0 dragon could take on a an army and not worries about getting damaged by archers. A 3.5 dragon cannot take on the army because the archer whom stick around will be given magic arrows in 50 arrow bundles by that 3rd level mage or cleric.

A 3.5 dragon doesn't have anything to fear from an army of low-level archers even with magic arrows. This is not a compelling argument against 3.5 DR.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I would have been quite happy to have a combination of the two. A particular demon might have DR 10/cold iron and +2 or a dragon might just have DR of 20/+5. I do wish dragons had harder to beat DR.

That said, of the two, the 3.5 approach is definitely more interesting and more balanced. So many 3.0 monsters had huge DR numbers that made them either impregnable or laughingstock depending on what weapon you had. The 3.5 version also made weapon choice and special materials more relevant, and added some much needed flavor.

The other problem with x/+x DR is that it assumes a certain wealth distribution by level, which is always a bad thing.

 

[TanisFrey]

A 3.5 dragon doesn't have anything to fear from an army of low-level archers even with magic arrows. This is not a compelling argument against 3.5 DR.

Let take a 1000 archer. Assuming that 1 in 20 make the fear save leaves the dragon to face 50 archers. Magic arrows are handed out leaving the dragon to take about 2 or 3 hits a round from the natural 20s. This is assuming the a 1000 archers is composed of nothing but 1st level fighter or rangers.

 

[TanisFrey]

The other thing about 3.5 DR system that is stupid it why does DR applied to separate objects not stack. Example: a higher level Barbarian or someone with stone skin wears armor made from Adamatine or has some other DR built into it. The armor should reduce the damage then the persons DR should apply.

I have no problem with a person, say a higher level barbarian, whom a mage casts a stone skin onto, only gets the better of the DR 3/- or DR 10/Adamatine.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

3.0e: Must have a +3 weapon to beat this monster

3.5e: Must have a magic adamantine weapon to beat this monster.

Both: Must be this tall to beat this monster.

Same problem, different criteria. Deckchairs on the Titanic.

QFT! The problem with both kinds of DR is that they're both all-or-nothing. You either lose a good chunk of damage, possibly all of it, or you have the right weapon and the DR might as well not exist. There's no solution to this for special material DR, but some ENworlder came up with a great house rule for magical weapons years ago:

Magical weapons bypass 5 points of DR per enhancement bonus. So if a PC with a +1 weapon hits a monster with DR 10/magic, the damage is reduced by 5. If you're looking at a 3.0 stat block, you just ignore the bonus after the slash. If you're looking at a 3.5 stat block, you just boost the DR a bit. My rule of thumb is "DR = 5 per 4 CRs."

It's simple, it's balanced, and it gives PCs another reason to upgrade enhancement rather than adding Wounding or Vorpal or whatever. Which is a big plus, in my book.

 

[Drowbane]

In 3.5 DR generally means nothing. In 3.0 it meant that the wizard had something to kill that the meleers might not be able to handle alone... much like how in 3.0 Golems (infinite SR) were almost a problem for casters (disregarding teh Conjuration boom spells).

 

[Vegepygmy]

Let take a 1000 archer.

Sure. Where are they positioned? What range are they firing from? Is anything obstructing their shots? How many can actually even take a shot at the dragon? Where is the dragon and why on earth is it making itself a target in the first place? Where are the support personnel for this army of 1,000 archers and who is protecting them?

Assuming that 1 in 20 make the fear save leaves the dragon to face 50 archers. Magic arrows are handed out leaving the dragon to take about 2 or 3 hits a round from the natural 20s.

Again, assuming all 50 of the remaining archers can even take a shot. And how many archers per round can the dragon kill? Why is the dragon even allowing itself to be fired upon?

This is assuming the a 1000 archers is composed of nothing but 1st level fighter or rangers.

A safe assumption in any world that isn't ridiculously high-powered.

Look...theoretically, 1000 archers with magic arrows could pose a threat to a 3.5 dragon. But in actual play? Not a chance.

 

[Belzbet]

This is all core:
Human Ranger lv. 1

HP: 9
AC: 17
SAVES: Fort +3 Ref +5 Will +0

ATTACK: +4 (+1 from BAB, +2 from dex, +1 from arrows)
RAPID SHOT: +2/+0
DAMAGE vs Dragons: 1d8+5 (+2 str, +1 Arrows, +2 favored enemy) Crit: 20/X3

Ranger (Favored Enemy Dragons)

Standard Array Used:
Str 14 Dex 15 Con 13 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8

Feat: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot (I know a ranger gets rapid shot for free at lv. 2 but...)
Class Features: Track, Wild Empathy, favored enemy (dragons)

Elf Traits

Items: Chain Shirt (although I dont think Armor will help this warrior against an adult dragon), Composite Longbow (mighty +2), 50 +1 Arrows. This army is funded by a wealthy man.
Longwsord and heavy shield as back up.



Wood Elf Fighter Lv. 1

HP: 11
AC: 16
SAVES: Fort + 3, Ref +3 Will +0

ATTACK: +5 (+1 from BAB, +3 from dex, +1 from arrows)
Rapid Shot: +3/+1
DAMAGE: 1d8+3 (+2 str, +1 Arrows)

STANDARD ARRAY USED:
Str. 14 (+2 racial) Dex 17 (+2 Racial) Con 12 (-2 Racial) Int 11 (-2 Racial) Wis 10 Cha 8

FEATS: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot

Elf Traits

ITEMS: Chain Shirt (although I dont think Armor will help this warrior against an adult dragon), Composite Longbow (mighty +2), 50 +1 Arrows. This army is funded by a wealthy man.
Longwsord and heavy shield as back up.



Adult Green Dragon:
So I dont have to write out the stats we will take the stats of thesult green sample dragon they give in 3.5 MM.
It has 230HP on average.

AC 27 (so only a crit can hit them, so they get hit by 5% of the arrows)

ATTACK: The attack modifier for all of the dragons natural attacks is higher than the archers AC (so a dragon only misses on a natural 1, or 5% of the time)

DAMAGE: its bite attack does on average about 20 damage (at a minimum it does 11 damage, and since the archers do not have toughness or a high Con. that is sufficient to kill any archer in one hit, we could make the archers con higher and str. lower but the dragons would still on average do 20 damage which is enough to kill even a Con. 18 fighter with toughness in one hit)

We will say that the archers are spread out enough (every archer is at least 55ft from any other archer)that the dragon can only kill one of them at a time with its natural attacks and breath (a spell might hit two of them at once though, but an adult green can only cast level 2 spells)

We will also say that the dragon can move fromone archer to another and attack all in the same round (it has 15ft reach and can move 40ft)
So, at minimum it will take the dragon 50 rounds to kill all 50 archers that are not effected by frightful presence. But to take into account move time and critical misses we will say that it will take the dragon 53 rounds to kill all 50 archers (a VERY generous number, since conditions would probaly be different and the dragon would probably take shorter to kill the archers)

Each round one of the 50 archers dies except, lets say,round 25 and 50)

Every Archer fires a rapid shot each round even if the dragon threatens it. Each attack has a 5% chance to hit. Out of 100 attack roles 5 of them should be hits.
On average the human rangers will do 9 damage and the elven fighters will do 7 (or a human ranger without a composite bow).

LEts say the archers are rangers also lets say the dragon is the last creature to go in combat:
On round 1 and 2 the archers do 81 damage (63 if the are fighters or rangers without composite bows) total (45 on round one 36 one round two).

On round 3 the archers do 36 (or 28 damage without composite bows; there are 49 archers now) and they collectively get 98 hits so about 4 or 5 hits each doing 9 damage on average (or 7 damage on average for fighter or for a ranger without a composite longbow)
On round 4 the 47 archers left will collectively get 94 attacks 5% of which are actual hits (5% of 94= 4.7, so we will say they get 4 hits)
So, on round 4 the archers will do about 36 damage (28 if fighters or rangers without composite bows)
The dragon is down to 77HP (or 111 with fightersor rangers without composite bows). This will continue and the dragon will die.

However the conditions are vey idealized: EVERY ranger has dragons as their favored enemy AND rapid shot, the archers are spread out enough so that the dragon can only kill one and the dragon gets no cover, also this is merely an adult dragon (a great wyrm has over 700HP so may be able to survive all 50 rounds) (range is not an issue since critical hits are the only attacks that matter)
On the other hand some of the other 950 archers will snap out of being frightened within 10 rounds and then the dragon will be in BIG trouble. I dont think even a great wyrm dragon can take on 900 archers firing at it if the archers are sufficiently spread out