D&D 5E D&D Next Design Goals (Article)

[Andor]

That is, if they design a hidden core game, then add the "classic" module to that game, while identifying that module's parts, they can appeal to the "classic" audience without guaranteeing the newer audience's retreat.

That hidden core game would be what people play when they want to play a balanced game, while those who enjoyed the old imbalance can have their game as the "real" game even if the 4E fans are playing the -actual- core.

Wow. Really? 4e is the secret light of truth that must be kept hidden beneath a public observance of the corrupt 'old school' D&D? So that the true disciples can continue to follow the actual messiah while the rest of us are led off to false paths by the dark ways of non-vancian martial powers?

Dude, it's just a game.

More to the point, if the 4e style characters and the non 4e styled charaters are not balanced against each other, then they will have flubbed a primary design goal. I think they can meet that goal without having to foster a secret cult who worship the lost, dark god of balance and wait for their messiah to return bearing the tablets of AEDU.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Wow. Really? 4e is the secret light of truth that must be kept hidden beneath a public observance of the corrupt 'old school' D&D? So that the true disciples can continue to follow the actual messiah while the rest of us are led off to false paths by the dark ways of non-vancian martial powers?

I have to agree with your reaction. I see this line of thought a lot, which suggests 4e is superior and needs to be secreted in because the only people don't recognize its superiority is becuase they hate it soley because it is 4e.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't really see them as being mutually exclusive.

99% of the time, I think you're right.

But goals inevitably come into conflict at some point. Say, you're looking at illusion spells -- something like minor image.

To keep it true to the play experience that people expect out of D&D, you need to have a flexible, general kind of spell rule for that. It needs to be able to create an illusion of whatever the user desires. Part of the fun of playing a D&D illusionist has always been that creativity, that capacity to use the situation in a unique way limited mostly by your imagination, and what senses your spell can affect.

Of course, this makes it nearly impossible to balance. Sometimes that little low-level spell will negate an encounter. Sometimes it will have nearly no effect. There's little way of knowing which is which before the spell is cast.

If we were to "balance" illusion, it might look like 4e illusion: combat magic with specific, predetermined effects.

However, that's not true to the experience of playing an illusionist in D&D. It fails at being fun in the way many people want an illusionist to be fun.

So this is a situation where the potential ability to negate an entire encounter needs to be preserved. It's not exactly like you can balance damage-per-round against that. It's effectively infinite damage sometimes, no damage other times, up to DM interpretation almost always. You're not going to be able to make that balanced in a way that is going to be very satisfying for anyone who wants to play a classic D&D style illusionist and create images of whatever strikes their fancy.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Okay, so they're basically saying, "this time, we're going to actually make a game under the D&D label that can do D&D". Oh, and "people who play D&D are more diverse and intelligent that we thought". What have we come to that these statements are so radical?

 

[P1NBACK]

I have to agree with your reaction. I see this line of thought a lot, which suggests 4e is superior and needs to be secreted in because the only people don't recognize its superiority is becuase they hate it soley because it is 4e.

And, if you disagree, be warned. You will be tied up to the Edition Warring Crucifix. But, anyone dissing pre-4E in any way is fine.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And, if you disagree, be warned. You will be tied up to the Edition Warring Crucifix. But, anyone dissing pre-4E in any way is fine.

I am fine with folks not liking pre-4E D&D. It is all preference.

 

[P1NBACK]

I am fine with folks not liking pre-4E D&D. It is all preference.

Oh, I agree completely.

It'll be interesting to see how 5E "unites" the player base with such diverse gaming ideology.

 

[Yora]

My guess is that it doesn't. In the last years, the entertainment industry was full of great promises that sounded really good, but didn't had anything to do with the product they were actually making.
It's like politicians before an election. They don't care about informing people what they offer, they only tell what people want to hear.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

THAC0 is only convoluted in retrospect. THAC0 was a huge improvement over the mess that was 1st edition.

1st Edition introduced the term and concept of THACO in the DMG (in the monster summary section). We used it from day one of play. The repeating 20s in the to hit charts rarely caused a problem.

In AD&D play (and similar classic play) they tend to have one of two effects: either they produce the "lottery" effect, in which PCs fall down pits they coudn't reasonably avoid, and then live or die based on whether the d6 damage roll is higher or lower than their 1st level hit die roll; or they produce the "standard operating procedure" effect, in which players prepare more or less complex dungeon-scouting procedures, involving the full works of detailed mapping, plumb lines, ten foot poles, wire-protected ear trumpets, etc.

Neither of these approaches occurs in my own 4e game, and personally I've not missed them. But if D&Dnext wants to capture the full range of D&D experiences it undoubtedly needs to make room for them. The interesting question is whether, in so doing, it makes room for a style of D&D play that is not interested in this sort of stuff.

A third effect (or maybe a variation of what you call 'lottery') was the depletion of resources. Traps that had no way of killing its victims at their level, but sapped the hit points and/or healing to wear them down before meeting the master lich at the bottom of the dungeon.

And I rarely saw "standard operating procedure" as you describe it in actual play of AD&D for two reasons. First, it often bored the players to do so, and as long as you weren't known for constantly using death traps it wasn't worth the boredom. Second, in game it cost more time to explore, which meant your group was more likely to be set upon by roaming monsters. The risk of spending all that in-game time to avoid a possible trap didn't measure up to the added chances of unnecessary combat. Combat was often the deadlier option.

I think the best AC anyone's ever got to in my games is -12 but - other than there was a lot of very expensive magic involved - I forget the specifics as to how it was achieved.

Full plate and shield is AC 0. If both are +5 and you wear a +5 ring of protection and have an 18 Dex, you get -18. And I think my PC in an admittedly horribly Monty Haul game still had a lower AC than that somehow.

Oh, I agree completely.

It'll be interesting to see how 5E "unites" the player base with such diverse gaming ideology.

I tdoesn't have to unite us all. It just has to unite those getting together around a single table. You and your group will determine together what works for you and what doesn't.

If someone has fighter encounter and daily exploits as a deal breaker, then his group has the choice of including them and having their buddy leave. Or iif they decide he's a great friend and a good player, they can decide those parts of the game aren't worth losing him from the group. The options should be there for all of us, leaving each group to decide how their game will play.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

My guess is that it doesn't. In the last years, the entertainment industry was full of great promises that sounded really good, but didn't had anything to do with the product they were actually making.
It's like politicians before an election. They don't care about informing people what they offer, they only tell what people want to hear.

Problem is, if theis is what WotC is doing, we'll see their plan in action before the metphorical election. The open playtest will show us all whether they are pie in the sky, outright lying, or actually living up to their goals and promises.