OAs/AoO - they gotta go

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Standing in front of them?

Even pre-grid days it was obvious that a human-sized person could not effectively block a 10-foot wide standard D&D hallway.

We could sit here all day, probably til the end of days, and discuss, "Well, what about this circumstance?" and "Nuh uh, what about that scenario?" But going individual round by separate corner case is not going to get anyone anywhere...and we'd NEVER see a 5e get finished.

The Fighter trying to protect the "squishies" is a corner case?! You just said upthread that the foes are gunning for the Wizard, it would make sense that the front-liner would commonly try to protect him. That's the opposite of a corner case.

I suppose its a playstyle thing, but if there are combatants in front of the mage, I never let the enemies just waltz around them to take a swing at the wizard. If they have missile weapons and want to try to shoot passed the melee folks, that fine. But they can't just race by the fighter for the wizard instead...there's 3 dimensions of armored fury to get by first.

Why can't they? Without passing attacks or opportunity attacks nothing stops them from doing so. Unless you totally disconnect the rules from the reality of the world any mass swarming creature, like orcs, goblins, kobolds are going to figure this out.

And if a DM doesn't force their monsters to stop at the first creature they meet like you do, then the player of the Fighter feels like his role as protector is useless.

There's situation-to-situation circumstances, of course. If it's a large or outdoor area and the party just wandered into an ambush from both of their flanks, then, yeah, obviously the attackers will be able to go straight for whoever they want. But in a "face-to-face" dungeon kind of encounter, there's probably not enough room for them to "just go around/ignore" whoever is in front.

It was common enough in the games we played back then to happen more than once per session.

There can not, nor should attempt to, be rules for every possible permutation/scenario that might/could possibly occur in game. That way leads to confusion, eventual contradiction and almost certain madness.

True. But commonly occurring scenarios shouldn't be left for the individual DM to decide whether his creatures will play nice and not just move past the impotent Fighter.

The rules don't have to, again, nor should say "everyone must apply this level complexity to their game." They need to say, "Here is the bare bones basic simplest framework of the game. Any game of 5e D&D uses this starting framework" and go/add on from there.

OA/AoO are not that "bare bones/simplest possible" mode of playing...with or without the use of grids or miniatures. Hence, optional module. Tack it on when you like...tack it on all of the time...don't tack it on at all. Up to you/your DM/table/group.

I can see your point in this regard even if I don't agree with you.

 

[P1NBACK]

Has no one played B/X? Seriously. It has the best rules for melee.

Once you're engaged in melee, you cannot "flee" unless you state defensive movement (which needs to be stated prior to initiative) and requires you to move backward, away from the enemy you were engaged with.

If you choose defensive movement, you can do a "withdrawal" or "retreat".

Withdrawal just means you move backward slowly and can attack if they follow you.

Retreat means you full out run away from them, but you're at -2 AC. So, if you declared defensive movement before you rolled initiative, you might lose initiative and be stuck with -2. If you win initiative, you can run away.

Notice there are no rules for moving PAST someone in combat? You cannot do it. So, no need for AoO. To go past someone, you have to move wide around them, avoiding them altogether.

So, to defend your Mage, put the Fighter(s) on the front line in front of the Mage. For anyone to get close to the Mage, they have to go through the Fighter first. Once they are engaged, they remain engaged until they A) kill the fighter or B) do defensive movement to get out of there.

The only exception could be special maneuvers, like Overrun or Knockdown, that allow an enemy to move past someone. But, those are more difficult to pull off.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Always liked them, but to be honest I don't think I've seen that many in use. It seems most monsters are tactical GENIUSES apparently. Most of the AoOs I've seen have come up from either drinking potions, casting, or special combat actions. Rarely movement, as most people seem to adopt the pawn 5' approach to combat.

There's no need to be a genius-level tactician. Even an animal would recognize the threat of an attacker trying to kill them and move cautiously around them to avoid exposing themself to an attack. The number of attacks a character makes in a round does not necessarily represent the actual number of swings, thrusts and parries that a weapon-wielder makes. It's not "swing" wait 6 seconds "swing" - that would make for the most ridiculous-looking slow motion battle sequence you ever saw.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Notice there are no rules for moving PAST someone in combat? You cannot do it.

You also couldn't play an Elven Cleric, but I'd rather leave the days of nonsensical restrictions in the past.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Has no one played B/X? Seriously. It has the best rules for melee.

Once you're engaged in melee, you cannot "flee" unless you state defensive movement (which needs to be stated prior to initiative) and requires you to move backward, away from the enemy you were engaged with.

If you choose defensive movement, you can do a "withdrawal" or "retreat".

Withdrawal just means you move backward slowly and can attack if they follow you.

Retreat means you full out run away from them, but you're at -2 AC. So, if you declared defensive movement before you rolled initiative, you might lose initiative and be stuck with -2. If you win initiative, you can run away.

Notice there are no rules for moving PAST someone in combat? You cannot do it. So, no need for AoO. To go past someone, you have to move wide around them, avoiding them altogether.

So, to defend your Mage, put the Fighter(s) on the front line in front of the Mage. For anyone to get close to the Mage, they have to go through the Fighter first. Once they are engaged, they remain engaged until they A) kill the fighter or B) do defensive movement to get out of there.

The only exception could be special maneuvers, like Overrun or Knockdown, that allow an enemy to move past someone. But, those are more difficult to pull off.

Then it becomes too limiting, as what if I want to move through the gaps in the enemy line to attack the back row, and im willing to take risks and pay consequences to do so.

 

[P1NBACK]

Then it becomes too limiting, as what if I want to move through the gaps in the enemy line to attack the back row, and im willing to take risks and pay consequences to do so.

Did you not read my sentence about overrun or knockdown? Why should you be able to just run through someone's line of defenses? It makes combat nonsensical. Do you not know about shield walls and the Battle of Thermopylae? You need to move around or break their lines (i.e. kill someone and move through their space).

 

[P1NBACK]

You also couldn't play an Elven Cleric, but I'd rather leave the days of nonsensical restrictions in the past.

How is it nonsensical to just be able to walk past someone who's cleaving into you and stepping to block you?

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

How is it nonsensical to just be able to walk past someone who's cleaving into you and stepping to block you?

Very nonsensical. That's why the cleaver should get a passing attack or opportunity attack, and why a skilled warrior should have some ability to stop you from moving past him.

The nonsensical part to me is that you are not even allowed to try to move past the attacker.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Did you not read my sentence about overrun or knockdown? Why should you be able to just run through someone's line of defenses? It makes combat nonsensical. Do you not know about shield walls and the Battle of Thermopylae? You need to move around or break their lines (i.e. kill someone and move through their space).

You're really going to equate a Fighter or two to a shield wall? The shield wall works in every version of D&D because they create a literal wall of flesh that can't be moved through. No one is asking that someone should be able to go through a defender. What we are saying is that someone could easily try to go around a defender they are engaged with. The consequences of trying to go around should be risky, but saying it's impossible doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

[P1NBACK]

Very nonsensical. That's why the cleaver should get a passing attack or opportunity attack, and why a skilled warrior should have some ability to stop you from moving past him.

The nonsensical part to me is that you are not even allowed to try to move past the attacker.

I guess you didn't really read my post.