D&D General Who is this made for (Not Beginners) - the New D&D Starter Set

[Micah Sweet]

For sure. But if it's not of value for you doesn't mean it's not of value for the game in the greater scheme of things. That seems to be a hole in the position you're taking. It kind of feels like you're putting your own needs, desires and biases ahead of everyone else's. Actually, more than that: replacing everyone else's with your own.

I respect your equanimity in the face of folks reacting to you. You'd get less of that reaction though if you would contemplate both horns of the dilemma.

I can only provide my own perspective. That doesn't mean other perspectives are invalid, but it does mean that's what I think. I don't see equal value for a starter set in comparison to a core book, because I value the increased game content over ease of use or extra "goodies" other people seem to think enhance their experience. I have no control over what other people do, so I don't see how valuing my experience over others hurts anyone, or is even all that strange. I like what I like, and other people like what they like. The fact that it seems likely I'm in the majority doesn't make my opinion less valid. I'm tired of being attacked for expressing myself feelings without attacking in return.

 

[Reef]

I can only provide my own perspective. That doesn't mean other perspectives are invalid, but it does mean that's what I think. I don't see equal value for a starter set in comparison to a core book, because I value the increased game content over ease of use or extra "goodies" other people seem to think enhance their experience. I have no control over what other people do, so I don't see how valuing my experience over others hurts anyone, or is even all that strange. I like what I like, and other people like what they like. The fact that it seems likely I'm in the majority doesn't make my opinion less valid. I'm tired of being attacked for expressing myself feelings without attacking in return.

It’s not that your experiences and opinions aren’t valid. It’s just that when a new book comes out from WOTC, your opinion is uniformly:

“I only have a vague idea of what this is, don’t want to research it, will never buy it, and WOTC made a mistake not catering to my experiences”

And when people explain why they find it useful, you double down on how it’s useless to you, and your opinion is just as valid as everyone else’s, and why oh why won’t people respect your right to not like stuff. And it quickly takes over the whole thread. You spend so much time and energy making sure that everyone is constantly aware of what you don’t like. If you stated your opinion and let it drop, allowing those that are interested to carry on, you wouldn’t be getting the pushback you do.

It really does begin to grate. But I don’t have you on ignore, because I actually do enjoy your insights and views on other threads. When the topic is something other than a new WOTC book, you always have an interesting take that I enjoy reading. I wish you’d spend less time on products you have no interest in, and more on actual discussions that you are interested in.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

had a bunch of cards

Do you never use props? I think a lot of the fun of D&Ding is crafting props. And I'm quite happy to use those other people have made too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do you never use props? I think a lot of the fun of D&Ding is crafting props. And I'm quite happy to use those other people have made too.

I don't use props, other than maps and minis occasionally (we mostly play TotM). I used a real road map recently for my Level Up game based on a future version of Earth, but that's about as far as I go. I was trained to believe all that stuff is unnecessary for play, and expensive to boot. We just use books, character sheets or plain paper, dice, and the electronic equivalents of same. All that stuff is pricey enough for me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It’s not that your experiences and opinions aren’t valid. It’s just that when a new book comes out from WOTC, your opinion is uniformly:

“I only have a vague idea of what this is, don’t want to research it, will never buy it, and WOTC made a mistake not catering to my experiences”

And when people explain why they find it useful, you double down on how it’s useless to you, and your opinion is just as valid as everyone else’s, and why oh why won’t people respect your right to not like stuff. And it quickly takes over the whole thread. You spend so much time and energy making sure that everyone is constantly aware of what you don’t like. If you stated your opinion and let it drop, allowing those that are interested to carry on, you wouldn’t be getting the pushback you do.

It really does begin to grate. But I don’t have you on ignore, because I actually do enjoy your insights and views on other threads. When the topic is something other than a new WOTC book, you always have an interesting take that I enjoy reading. I wish you’d spend less time on products you have no interest in, and more on actual discussions that you are interested in.

Thank you for the kind words. I really should just not engage in WotC product threads, but it's hard because so much of the action on this forum is there, and I have a really difficult time not responding when my opinion is challenged. I am at least dropping the starter set thing.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I can only provide my own perspective. That doesn't mean other perspectives are invalid, but it does mean that's what I think. I don't see equal value for a starter set in comparison to a core book, because I value the increased game content over ease of use or extra "goodies" other people seem to think enhance their experience. I have no control over what other people do, so I don't see how valuing my experience over others hurts anyone, or is even all that strange. I like what I like, and other people like what they like. The fact that it seems likely I'm in the majority doesn't make my opinion less valid. I'm tired of being attacked for expressing myself feelings without attacking in return.

That's all sensible. What you're missing is that the way you make your points doesn't acknowledge anyone else's positions, which is effectively telling others I don't care what you think and your opinions don't matter. You're effectively attacking others when you post, but I don't think you realise it. If you're attacking someone, it's next to impossible to have a meaningful discussion with them, let alone have them not feel antipathy (how's that for an old school D&D word!) towards you.

Here's what I see when you post: you provide your perspective, and you do it clearly, which is great. You sometimes lack respect for other opinions when you do so though. Lots of "kids these days/modern sensisbilities" types of snide add-ons. Lose that attitude. All this communicates is that you view any opinion other than your own as beneath notice. It also cuts you off from the wisdom of ideas other than your own and has the side effect of making your opinion worth less in the eyes of others. Not to mention the eyerolls and general irritation with this frankly antisocial behaviour... hence the multiple ignores.

I will commend you on your reponses to the blowback I just mentioned though. You rarely let it get to you, and never respond angrily. You sometimes get irritated, but even then you respond with respect. Hats off.

I very rarely (but occasionally do!) agree with your posts. But I always respect the way you handle reactions to your post. I wish I had that kind of patience.

I do understand and sympathise with the positions you take, even if I rarely agree with them. I do wish you would stop shooting yourself in the foot though!

 

[Imaro]

I can only provide my own perspective. That doesn't mean other perspectives are invalid, but it does mean that's what I think. I don't see equal value for a starter set in comparison to a core book, because I value the increased game content over ease of use or extra "goodies" other people seem to think enhance their experience. I have no control over what other people do, so I don't see how valuing my experience over others hurts anyone, or is even all that strange. I like what I like, and other people like what they like. The fact that it seems likely I'm in the majority doesn't make my opinion less valid. I'm tired of being attacked for expressing myself feelings without attacking in return.

Wait so are you saying you are incapable of understanding the needs, or thoughts of someone outside yourself... as in you really can't imagine what a beginner to the hobby without anyone to guide or aid them (the actual target market) might find useful? I find that hard to believe when our entire hobby has, as a major component, pretending to be someone else...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Wait so are you saying you are incapable of understanding the needs, or thoughts of someone outside yourself... as in you really can't imagine what a beginner to the hobby without anyone to guide or aid them (the actual target market) might find useful? I find that hard to believe when our entire hobby has, as a major component, pretending to be someone else...

Of course I understand that this kind of starter set might be useful to new players. I was just stating my personal feelings about such products. And as I said above, I am dropping it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

we mostly play TotM

Yeah, that will make a big difference. I’m not keen on TotM, but minis and battlemaps are too expensive for me to buy on a regular basis, so I mostly make my own. But that’s time consuming, and the materials cost too. A couple of my players came to D&D via Warhammer, and love nothing better than spending hours painting a mini.

 

[kermit4karate]

Just because someone doesn't say the word badwrongfun doesn't mean they aren't saying exactly that.

As I said, a lot of people have said I was wrong, but almost NO ONE has actually addressed the issues that I pointed out.

For example, the big one...Saving Throws. I've mentioned it several times (and if one actually HAD the book they can go look at the section labled Saving Throws, look in the glossary Saving Throws...those are the places where you'd expect to get the information and it's...just NOT THERE. In fact, it tells you the WRONG location of where to find it.

Does this bother anyone...no...except that they are experienced players.

They love to use their experience to say it isn't hard...but I think it's harder for some of those with experience to actually see it from the perspective of new players and NO ONE is really addressing that point.

Similarly, there is no real clear instructions on how to set up your character. Even the things that people have pointed out just were regurgitating what I already had posted previously at the beginning of the thread on what was told about character creation, but no one is addressing the real problem which is it never really says what to do with the cards. There is no real instruction (which is why my players had no idea they were supposed to get the cards in their hands and such).

Etc...etc...etc.

So, yes, LOTS of blame on me and my players with no one actually addressing the elephants in the room. If they had, perhaps they'd start to see WHY my players had problems in the first place and why that may be a problem later.

In my opinion, after reading this thread though, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the set ONLY puts information on the cards rather than in a central location where the players could see it that way as well. It doesn't really guide players on how these cards are supposed to work with the game...etc.

The actual parts in the rule book (as I said, combat and skill checks went pretty smoothly) were things they grasped easily. It were portions that were not touched upon as deeply as combat or skill checks which presented problems...and that includes basic character creation (and why even have that in the Starter Set rather than pregens. Sure, I love being able to create characters...but make it a basic set than...a Starter Set should be just that and easy to START playing).

Do you have a printer at home? If so, print a few copies of a sheet that says "START HERE" in a big font near the top, then "NEXT READ HERE" in a slightly smaller font, etc.

I'm not saying you're wrong about how clear the instructions are about where new players should start because in my experience many D&D books suffer from that disorganization, but you lose me with your hyperbole. It isn't like it's an impossible dilemma to address.

If it's egregiously disorganized in your estimation, grab one small stack of Post-It notes, mark the pages that lay things out and stick them. Problem solved in 5 minutes.