General Discussion

[jkason]

Question: Cythera uses Perform Dance (+12) in place of her Acrobatics Skill (Class feature for Dancing Dervish). If she has Boots of Elven Kind (+5 to Acrobatics) would that effectively give her +5 on top of Perform Dance, or does it add to her true Acrobatics Skill (+2 for Dexterity alone).

What about Masterwork Slippers (50gp), +2 on Perform Dance? Same idea?

I've always read Versatile Dance (and Versatile Performance, which it replaces) as meaning you're really making a Perform check instead of the requisite skill. So bonuses to Acrobatics checks wouldn't effect it; bonuses to Perform would.

If nothing else, I think it should definitely be one or the other; otherwise versatile gets a whole lot more easy to break by double-stacking bonuses.

 

[GlassEye]

Question: Cythera uses Perform Dance (+12) in place of her Acrobatics Skill (Class feature for Dancing Dervish). If she has Boots of Elven Kind (+5 to Acrobatics) would that effectively give her +5 on top of Perform Dance, or does it add to her true Acrobatics Skill (+2 for Dexterity alone).

What about Masterwork Slippers (50gp), +2 on Perform Dance? Same idea?

I think a strict RAW interpretation would say that the Boots of Elven Kind do not add to the Perform skill. However, that is clearly not the intent, at least as envisioned by James Jacobs. This is a pretty good discussion on Versatile Performance (though I've only read as far as the first page). James' comment is particularly interesting and I think that's how we should run it in LPF.

Versatile Performance's design goal was to give bards more skill points without artificially increasing their total skill points AND to put an emphasis onto the Perform skill for them after the Perform skill's importance regarding bardic performance lessened from its importance in 3.5's version.

The result isn't perfect, alas. And it's something that I very much would like to see addressed in FAQs or errata or, most likely, in the upcoming Advanced Player's Guide.

The two basic elements: bards should be able to "reschedule" their skill ranks in skills that Versatile Performance duplicates every time the gain a new Versatile Performance; this allows a bard to be good at, say, Fly and Acrobatics until he gets Versatile Performance (dance), and once he DOES get that, lets him reapply skill points previously spent on Fly and Acrobatics to other skills. This'd work similarly to how sorcerers get to repick spells periodically.

The other element is that when you use Versatile Performance to use a Perform skill for another skill, bonuses you'd get to that other skill from things like Skill Focus or other Feats, racial modifiers, magic items, and the like SHOULD apply to your Perform skill check when you're using it for those particular versatile skills. In effect, Versatile Performance gives you a pair of "phantom skills" with the corresponding "phantom skill points" each time you gain it.

If instead you want to just kill the Versatile Performance ability entirely, my suggested fix would be instead to increase the base skill ranks per level granted to bards by 2 each time they would normally gain Versatile Performance. These skill rank increases should probably be retroactive.

ANYway. It's something that I might call a personal crusade to get fixed. Might be a while before it sees print, but them's my thoughts, anyway.​

 

[Systole]

RAW you can make a case for it either way. It's an Acrobatics check using the Performance skill modifier.

Versatile Performance: He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill.

Boots of Elvenkind: These soft boots enable the wearer to move nimbly about in virtually any surroundings, granting a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.

​

Frankly, I'd say that LPF should skip the whole lawyering of the RAW and decide whether items that affect the Performance skill or the base skill or both should apply to Versatile Performance. In order words, with this particular example, should +Acrobatics boots work, or should +Perform-Dance boots work? Or should either one work?

The important thing to remember is that if you choose Perform-Dance, you're essentially getting three magic items for the price of one (+Acrobatics, +Fly, and +Perform-Dance). That's not necessarily a terrible thing given that class skills are supposed to make you better, but my inclination is that three-for-one would be a bit on the overpowered side. I'd allow Acrobatics boots to add to Versatile Dance when applied to Acrobatics checks.

 

[sunshadow21]

I've always seen versatile performance to be that you get the skill points and class skill bonus from your perform skill with the the related skills, but all other bonuses are still determined as normal for the skill in question. In this example, I'd say that the +Acrobatics boots would count, not +Perform-Dance boots.

 

[perrinmiller]

Frankly, I'd say that LPF should skip the whole lawyering of the RAW and decide whether items that affect the Performance skill or the base skill or both should apply to Versatile Performance. In order words, with this particular example, should +Acrobatics boots work, or should +Perform-Dance boots work? Or should either one work?

The important thing to remember is that if you choose Perform-Dance, you're essentially getting three magic items for the price of one (+Acrobatics, +Fly, and +Perform-Dance). That's not necessarily a terrible thing given that class skills are supposed to make you better, but my inclination is that three-for-one would be a bit on the overpowered side. I'd allow Acrobatics boots to add to Versatile Dance when applied to Acrobatics checks.

Okay, having read the comments and thought more about it.

Elvenkind boots provide a competence bonus to acrobatics checks, then using Perfom Dance only replaces the Acrobatics Skill bonus. Realistically, the magic item would improve character's ability to do acrobatics, regardless the mechanics involved. I think the boots stack on top of the Perform Dance skill. I don't think that is broken, the magic item still does what it is designed to do.

Not sure where these boots would impact Fly or Perform Dance itself.

Now the masterwork dancing slippers (+2 equipment bonus) for 50gp, is in the approved category for items to improve skills with a masterwork device. If it improves Perform and the two other skills that can use the Perform Dance without needing to use a separate MWK skill kit, then you are just saving 100gp. Not really a big deal in the scheme of things for a 7th level character.

 

[Systole]

MWK is less of an issue than wondrous items. Specific wondrous items can be designed, (rules and costs are here) so conceivably Cythera could order Boots of Dancing +5. In the case where the Perform bonus carries through to Versatile Performance, this would amount to a 5000gp savings compared to three separate pairs of boots. It would be a 7500gp savings if she put all the skills on one pair of boots. That strikes me as a bit much.

I agree with sunshadow. I think the skill ranks should transfer from the perform skill to the new skill, but bonuses shouldn't.

 

[GlassEye]

And I disagree. If I understand you correctly that would eliminate that feat bonus that I spent on Perform from counting. IMO, neither bards nor skills are so powerful/game altering that this ability needs to be reined in in this fashion.

The question remains, however, concerning skill bonuses to the replaced skill. I think those bonuses should count, as long as the Perform skill doesn't use a skill bonus of the same kind.

And, on an unrelated topic: while custom items haven't been specifically disallowed I would vote against their use in LPF.

 

[sunshadow21]

That's just how I've seen it done before. Permanent modifiers, like skill points and class skill bonus transfer. Equipment and other situational bonuses do not. I've never seen it come up with feats and racial bonuses before, so that's new ground for me. I'd say all permanent bonuses, like traits, feats, and racial bonuses would transfer as well, but situational, anything that requires special circumstances to trigger, and equipment bonuses would not.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

That's just how I've seen it done before. Permanent modifiers, like skill points and class skill bonus transfer. Equipment and other situational bonuses do not. I've never seen it come up with feats and racial bonuses before, so that's new ground for me. I'd say all permanent bonuses, like traits, feats, and racial bonuses would transfer as well, but situational, anything that requires special circumstances to trigger, and equipment bonuses would not.

If I understand this correctly, I agree with this take. The bard uses his skill bonus in place of the Acrobatics skill - this would include any modifiers that come from feats or other sources that make changes to the Bard himself. Equipment modifiers that affect Acrobatics would be used when the Perform skill is used in place of Acrobatics. The same would be true of equipment that modifies the Fly skill or the Perform skill. So Boots of Elvenkind would be helpful for Acrobatics, but not for Fly or Perform. Masterwork slippers would not be helpful for Acrobatics or Fly.

 

[sunshadow21]

If I understand this correctly, I agree with this take. The bard uses his skill bonus in place of the Acrobatics skill - this would include any modifiers that come from feats or other sources that make changes to the Bard himself. Equipment modifiers that affect Acrobatics would be used when the Perform skill is used in place of Acrobatics. The same would be true of equipment that modifies the Fly skill or the Perform skill. So Boots of Elvenkind would be helpful for Acrobatics, but not for Fly or Perform. Masterwork slippers would not be helpful for Acrobatics or Fly.

Pretty much. Situational bonuses that could come into play, such as bard/ranger with favored enemy adjustments, or a trait that gave a boost to a skill under specific circumstances would make less sense to transfer, the same goes for external bonuses such as equipment, but I can easily see trait or feat bonuses that are always on making the transition.