D&D 5E Play experience contributing to D&DNext expectations

When I polled this topic a few years back, about 1/3 of people claimed that their overall experience with DM's was poor. So, you get into the Gnome Effect where, while it's never the majority, because poor DM's are very common, generally any new(ish) group will have at least one player who's been totally burned before and is not exactly jumping up and down with love for his new DM.
The other issue is, that there's no agreement as to what a good DM is. Different players want different things from a roleplaying game. Some want a GM that challenges them to the utmost, some want the GM to tell a story, others want to feel immersed in a rich plausible world, others want a casual Friday night hack and slash. A player that doesn't get what he wants, and is unaware that there are many legitimate rpg playstyles, may define his GM as bad.

The OP says that a good GM ensures all the players have something to do. Well, in this article, we have a GM arguing the exact opposite, that it's a player's responsibility. It's what it means to be a good player. Personally I incline more towards Melkor's preference, but the point is that both viewpoints are perfectly legitimate.

That said, there certainly are GMs who are just plain bad.
 
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It seems like a lot of players have played in games with Dungeon Masters who seem to derive pleasure from playing adversary to the players, killing their characters, and "winning" at D&D (instead of providing a great story and shared experience for the players).
Playing adversary, in the sense that the devising and running of challenges for the players is the GM's main purpose, I see as being a perfectly legitimate playstyle. Deliberately setting out to 'win' by killing the PCs I see as not being legitimate, because it's too easy, and it seems like just an emotional power trip.
 

I do think Magic the Gathering has something to do with this balance/broken obsession since 3rd Ed.

Never heard such volume arguments in pre-3rd Ed (also, the player sense of entitlement went a bit through the roof, not that I'm advocating control-freak DMs).
 

My ideal is a game where I can optimize to my hearts content, and not break the game, or ruin anyone else's fun.

Can you explain how this is possible? I mean, I presume you want your optimization effort to mean something mechanically....so doesn't that imply that there must be "trap" options that are non-optimized, and that your optimized character will outshine your friends' non-optimized ones? How do you envision this being possible?

Ultimately, I want balanced rules because I enjoy games with balanced rules, more than games where the DM has to fix everything on the fly, no matter how skilled that DM is.

The only games I have seen with absolutely balanced rules are all narrative-intense games (Capes, frex.) and are far afield from anything recognizable as D&D (although you can do fantasy with them.) Most importantly, optimization is absolutely impossible from a purely mechanical standpoint in these systems.

Does not the existence of "optimized" and "sub-optimized" characters imply imbalance between them?
 

One could just as validly argue that the very act of optimizing is itself metagaming; that doing anything to give an advantage outside what the character itself would do within its own frame of existence is simply gaming the system.

There are two kinds of build options:

Inherent, which a character, in-game, could not choose.
Learned, which a character, in-game, can decide to learn.

A Race is Inherent. Starting Ability skills are Inherent.

A Class level is Learned, as are most feats.

For Learned options, clearly this is not metagaming. Why shouldn't my character choose the best options? He's in a life-or-death occupation. He'd be a fool not to.

For Inherent options, why is choosing a set of optimal Inherent options any more metagaming than choosing a set of non-optimal Inherent options? Why would any one set of Inherent options be any more metagaming than any other? To use 4E, is playing an Eladrin Wizard somehow more metagamey than playing a Half-orc Wizard? The former is pretty clearly more optimized than the latter.

In 3e, an optimizer's dream if ever there was one,

Not mine. Optimizing 3e is trivial, and does not provide useful results, because optimization just plain breaks the game.

4E is the best game for optimization I've played yet.

I came up with (and played) some very sub-optimal character concepts - not because I was trying to be useless, but because that was the character I wanted to play and the rules almost got in the way. In one instance, a full-on optimizer got hold of one of my characters* and guest-piloted it; he later squawked at me about how terribly built it was. However, once I explained that I was trying to achieve X, Y and Z with this character he had to grudgingly admit that I'd actually done the best I could have with it.

In a more well-balanced game, your character concept would not have lagged behind optimized alternatives nearly as much.

In an ideal game, every possible character concept would have optimized expressions of them. Not attainable, of course, but that's something RPGs should strive for.

Your story expresses one of many reasons why I want game balance.

* - I was trying to build a "heavy Ranger", a woodsman in plate, but as a straight Ranger without going the PrC route.

Now, see, this sounds like metagaming to me. Is a character really supposed to be aware, or care, that an advancement route is the "Ranger Class" or a "PrC"? Isn't it just a bunch of different capabilities to him? I've always viewed those labels as jargon for the sake of the players, not in-world distinctions.

Can you explain how this is possible? I mean, I presume you want your optimization effort to mean something mechanically....so doesn't that imply that there must be "trap" options that are non-optimized, and that your optimized character will outshine your friends' non-optimized ones? How do you envision this being possible?

If someone doesn't optimize their character, that implies that they do not care about their effectiveness as much as I do. So a small difference in effectiveness should not ruin their fun. In a game without any optimizing players, there's bound to be significant differences in character effectiveness, by pure chance, anyway.

But even if optimization only produced different, novel character capabilities, that weren't any more effective than the obvious builds (but still at least as effective), I'd still enjoy it. That's highly unlikely to occur, of course.

The only games I have seen with absolutely balanced rules are all narrative-intense games (Capes, frex.) and are far afield from anything recognizable as D&D (although you can do fantasy with them.) Most importantly, optimization is absolutely impossible from a purely mechanical standpoint in these systems.

Does not the existence of "optimized" and "sub-optimized" characters imply imbalance between them?

I don't expect "absolutely balanced rules". I expect rules that are balanced enough that I can optimize my characters, and not ruin the fun of my friends who just grab whatever looks cool at the time.

For the most part, 4E fit this bill (at least, the closest of any edition of DnD). As long as I avoided the few obviously broken combinations (that generally got errata'd anyway), there was lots of room to play. Ideally, 5E would improve on this balance.

Also, there's a difference between "imbalance" that arises because some players care more about, and are more skilled at, a certain aspect of the game than others, and imbalance in the options available, where certain build options are presented as equal to others, but are clearly not. The former is inevitable. That's how games work. The latter should be avoided. Trap options are not good design.

Chess (provided first player is chosen randomly) is an absolutely perfectly balanced game. That does not mean that more skilled chess players won't be "imbalanced" in comparison to others.
 
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I do think Magic the Gathering has something to do with this balance/broken obsession since 3rd Ed.

Never heard such volume arguments in pre-3rd Ed (also, the player sense of entitlement went a bit through the roof, not that I'm advocating control-freak DMs).
I think it has more to do with the widespread proliferation of the internet as a medium for discussion of gaming. For what it's worth, I personally heard a few complaints about some of the 2e 'Complete' books back in my day, and reviews of the 1e Unearthed Arcana are rife with accusations of munchkinism.

But with the advent of the information age, gamers could discuss, share and complain about gaming issues in a brand new way, reaching out to many, many more people. People are very quick to lay blame on video games and M:tG to explain behavioral changes. I think it has more to do with a massive sweeping technological revolution that has changed the face of the world since I was a child.

My first exposure to using the internet to discuss gaming was stumbling across a little site called 'Eric Noah's Unofficial 3rd Edition News'.
 

I do think Magic the Gathering has something to do with this balance/broken obsession since 3rd Ed.

Never heard such volume arguments in pre-3rd Ed (also, the player sense of entitlement went a bit through the roof, not that I'm advocating control-freak DMs).

Umm, considering that MTG came out YEARS before 3e did, I'm not really sure of the cause and effect here. I played MtG back in college, so that was about 93. 3e doesn't hit the scene for almost ten years after that.

All you have to do is start perusing the STACKS of arguments in Dragon magazine and the like and you'll see all sorts of "obsession" with balance. Heck, what do you think the original Unearthed Arcana was?

Balance has ALWAYS been an issue. I played 2e D&D because it was more balanced than a lot of games that were out at the time. Tried Paladium... nope. Tried Vampire, and realized that I broke the bloody game during chargen entirely by accident.

The "obsession" with balance goes back to the very beginnings of the hobby. It's just that now, every Tom, Dick and Harry actually can recognize balance because we've had decades of experience showing what works and what's probably not a good idea.
 

I also have no idea how this is 5E specific...

AD&D had balance and more uniformity in DM adjudication as goals. So did 3E and so did 4E.

If anything, we have heard several time for 5/Nxt about giving power back to the DM and putting more trust in them.

Still, if there are known problems (like "broken combos" which may have prompted this thread?) and they are doing a new edition, its probably a good thing to fix those problems, regardless of our assumptions about how free a hand the DM, or players, should have.
 

If someone doesn't optimize their character, that implies that they do not care about their effectiveness as much as I do. So a small difference in effectiveness should not ruin their fun. In a game without any optimizing players, there's bound to be significant differences in character effectiveness, by pure chance, anyway.

hmm....5e (presumably) will involve making many choices as a character levels up. As an optimizer, you presumably wish to make the optimum choice at each point. Assuming there are good, neutral, and bad choices along the way, your PC will accumulate advantages compared to another. At some point, won't your advantage will reach the point of "ruining their fun"? Is there a level where this is acceptable? Presumably, different players will tolerate different levels of disparity in the effectiveness of their characters? How should/could WOTC determine what the optimum acceptable disparity is?

But even if optimization only produced different, novel character capabilities, that weren't any more effective than the obvious builds (but still at least as effective), I'd still enjoy it. That's highly unlikely to occur, of course.

That's called customization. There are plenty of systems where customization does not imply optimization. (Again, mostly narrative-focused games.) D&D's simulationist and gamist bents make this a near impossibility, IMO. (No Judgement implied.)

Also, there's a difference between "imbalance" that arises because some players care more about, and are more skilled at, a certain aspect of the game than others, and imbalance in the options available, where certain build options are presented as equal to others, but are clearly not. The former is inevitable. That's how games work. The latter should be avoided. Trap options are not good design.

Chess (provided first player is chosen randomly) is an absolutely perfectly balanced game. That does not mean that more skilled chess players won't be "imbalanced" in comparison to others.

I agree with you about "trap" options. I'd rather have the difference between skilled and unskilled players play out through their character actions, rather than their build choices. That said, I'm still not sure how much room for mechanical optimization there can be without some options being "traps." Having said that, though, I find it difficult to determine how one determines mechanical balance without making very specific assumptions about playstyle...which is one of the things that got them into trouble with 4e.
 

hmm....5e (presumably) will involve making many choices as a character levels up. As an optimizer, you presumably wish to make the optimum choice at each point. Assuming there are good, neutral, and bad choices along the way, your PC will accumulate advantages compared to another. At some point, won't your advantage will reach the point of "ruining their fun"? Is there a level where this is acceptable? Presumably, different players will tolerate different levels of disparity in the effectiveness of their characters?

The more decisions there are in a character build, the more difficult it is to balance them. Leveling raises the number of decisions made. But it should be balanced throughout. So, yes, balancing a game like DnD is tough. But that's why we pay professionals to do it!

The best thing they can do is make sure the simple character build options (that non-optimizers are likely to pick) are well balanced with the complicated ones (that optimizers are likely to pick). This should be done by making sure that the simple characters are not just examples of the complicated build system, but have their own edges.

How should/could WOTC determine what the optimum acceptable disparity is?

The optimum disparity is zero. They don't really need to determine an "acceptable" disparity. They should do the best they can. Whether it is good enough is something for playtesting to tell them.

That's called customization. There are plenty of systems where customization does not imply optimization. (Again, mostly narrative-focused games.) D&D's simulationist and gamist bents make this a near impossibility, IMO. (No Judgement implied.)

Optimization is merely finding the optimums in a system. The obvious builds could be just as optimal as the more complicated, heavily customized builds. It still takes optimization to find those builds. But again, that's just theoretical. It's just to say that I don't need optimization to produce a major boost in power to have fun with it.

I agree with you about "trap" options. I'd rather have the difference between skilled and unskilled players play out through their character actions, rather than their build choices.

But aren't most build choices really character actions? Why shouldn't those play out as differences, too? Now, I don't want those differences to be so great that they ruin fun, but that applies to character actions as well. Optimization and trap options don't only apply to character building.

I find it difficult to determine how one determines mechanical balance without making very specific assumptions about playstyle...which is one of the things that got them into trouble with 4e.

Well, mechanical balance is really only meaningful assuming optimal play. Without that assumption, game balance is impossible to analyze, because non-optimal decision making can turn any game options into bad ones.

But, the key is that the game should be designed such that the obvious, simple choices have a fighting chance at being reasonably close to optimal.
 

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