[L&L] Balancing the Wizards in D&D

[Lanefan]

4e has this and my experience is that it works just fine. The wizard can only have one light active at a time, though, so the fighter's Sunblade is actually a better bet most of the time.

Sunblade? Is that like a Sunsword from previous editions, 'cause if so that's a mighty powerful thing to be giving characters who can't even cast Continual Light yet...

4e uses a skill for this, which works far better than the spellcasters having to give up attacks or heals for it, in my experience. Taking an action and a skill roll is easy in the "search the room" phase, but often decidedly sub-optimal in combat.

Detect Magic isn't usually a combat spell anyway; it's more an exploration thing. I'd rather force the casters to have to choose where to put their spells, but either method could work.

Lanefan

 

[Bluenose]

And B/X MU spells only went to 6th level.

I'd be cool with B/X style spells. Throw in the slower advancement and tap it out at 14th level while you're at it.

You've been reading Adventurer Conqueror King, have you? It actually allows some higher level spells, but they're rituals and not trivial to cast.

 

[Doug McCrae]

D&D doesn't expect naked fighters with a steel sword to be adventuring at 15th level. It expects fighters with rings of protection, boots of flying, a helm of brilliance, gem of seeing and sword of might smiting to be adventuring at 15th level.

D&D was never intended to be a low-magic item system, and that is probably why it sucks at that once you get above relatively low level!

If magic items are necessary for balance, then does that mean that they are an expectation and not a reward for skilled play? Wealth-by-level guidelines, magic items in PHB, sense of entitlement, videogame generation, cats and dogs living together. Etc.

 

[Mattachine]

It looks as though the folks that want low-level wizards to have almost no magic won't like the new edition. Since the majority of those folks are already using house-rules in their games, I guess they will just have to house-rule away some minor at-will magic in 5e.

The design team has made it clear that minor, at-will magic of some type is going into the new edition.

 

[Sadras]

Earlier editions have got no mechanics to support play which focuses on the encounter/situation, and have several mechanics that push against that. Many classes have abilities that recharge on a daily cycle. Hit points recharge on a daily cycle (either via natural healing, or spells). Many spell durations are minutes or tens of minutes per level, engendering a focus on time between encounters rather than events within an encounter. Etc.

I see, however I did say that adjustments could be made to the existing system. The basic core was user-friendly to have it being adjusted. So I was specifically speaking options with the PHB or the DMG but house rules as well.

Core B/X or AD&D has no mechanics in the PC build side of things that, without more, integrate the PCs into the gameworld (with druids, monks and assassins as perhaps very modest exceptions, because of their advancement rules). For a contrast within the context of AD&D, look at Oriental Adventures. For a contrast within D&D more broadly, look at 4e, in which nearly every race and many classes are defined partly in terms of their relationship to cosmologically and thematically significant story elements (eg to be a dwarf is to be a descendant of slaves of the giants, who served the titans who served the primordials who fought the gods over the fate of the world - choosing to be a dwarf situates directly in relation to one of the key conflicts within the gameworld).

True, this grew from experience, setting and design. The Racial Handbooks of 2E helped with this a lot. And If I remember correctly the Gazetteer series did provide a thematic storyline for the races as well. Dragonlance too had a handbook. Can't really comment on FR, Eberron or Dark Sun as I did not invest time into those settings.
Furthermore the system did not preclude the DM designing thematic or cosmological relationships between differing entities/races.

Certainly 4E took all this straight out the box which is great for some, but I was not debating that initially. My initial comment was the older editions could essentially be manipulated to suit any style of play (whether they be options from Books, Supplements, Magazines or Houserules) and from what you mentioned up until this point I see nothing that precludes that. (Design and integrate).

And from a completely different playstyle angle, no edition of D&D (includnig 4e) can do gritty fantasy, because the damage rules don't support it. (Contrast Rolemater, Runequest, Chivalry and Sorcery, etc.)

Whole-heartedly agree with this point. Many proposed systems (from the publishers and from the fans) have come to the fore to be used in conjunction or in place of the D&D health/damage system but have failed to capture what some other non-D&D systems have done so much better.
So yes, I concede D&D fell short here.

 

[GM Dave]

You've been reading Adventurer Conqueror King, have you? It actually allows some higher level spells, but they're rituals and not trivial to cast.

It would really change things if spells like Wish or Meteor Swarm were several hour if not a day or more long casting rituals.

It would move these types of 'game breaking' spells out of the combat environment and move them more to set piece really evil plans or the save of player's lives that really deserve to be brought back at great cost.

Much better than the fighter died this round so we'll wish him back up to full health the next round.

Time stop would not be the spell a wizard on spur of the moment uses to run around setting up delayed charges around Orcus but be something that requires pre-planning to get set up to then take advantage of that few seconds of extra time (more used to pull off that ultimate theft from the City of Bronze of the Artifact needed to challenge Orcus).

 

[DMKastmaria]

You've been reading Adventurer Conqueror King, have you? It actually allows some higher level spells, but they're rituals and not trivial to cast.

I haven't picked ACKS up yet. Too many bloody Kickstarter's, for me to keep up with them all.

 

[GM Dave]

It looks as though the folks that want low-level wizards to have almost no magic won't like the new edition. Since the majority of those folks are already using house-rules in their games, I guess they will just have to house-rule away some minor at-will magic in 5e.

The design team has made it clear that minor, at-will magic of some type is going into the new edition.

In the May 16th discussion, they also made know that they would like to make an option without at-wills.

It was just their design playtest seemed to favour having some at-wills in greater demand then no at-wills.

This is reminiscent of the Gnome race question. If 5% of your supporters play Gnomes can you discard including Gnomes in your game?

If your support is 100 people then you've lost 5 people. If your support is 100,000 people then you've lost 5,000 people at potentially 25/person or 125,000 dollars in sales. That is enough to make it potentially worth adding a few extra lines to a book to satisfy that group.

When it comes to the question of a non-at-will caster there are likely to be at least 5% if not more that would want that as an option.

It is also something that a head market sales person will look at and point to as being a way to avoid initial rejection of the project for a low investment of time and cost. This is something you should aim for when you are hoping to avoid problems through playtesting.

You might even have the 'problem' solved for you by the playtesting as I bet their will be at least a dozen people that will go on boards discussing 'fixes' that will provide an alternative if the system can 'easily' allow that.

 

[Fifth Element]

If magic items are necessary for balance, then does that mean that they are an expectation and not a reward for skilled play? Wealth-by-level guidelines, magic items in PHB, sense of entitlement, videogame generation, cats and dogs living together. Etc.

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter, can't XP, +1, FTW. Etc.

 

[Doug McCrae]

D&D doesn't expect naked fighters with a steel sword to be adventuring at 15th level. It expects fighters with rings of protection, boots of flying, a helm of brilliance, gem of seeing and sword of might smiting to be adventuring at 15th level.

D&D was never intended to be a low-magic item system, and that is probably why it sucks at that once you get above relatively low level!

If magic items are necessary for balance, then does that mean that they are an expectation and not a reward for skilled play? Wealth-by-level guidelines, magic items in PHB, sense of entitlement, videogame generation, cats and dogs living together. Etc.

I guess one way to resolve this problem is if there is no expectation of attaining high level. Or any level above first. Experience points are always a reward for skilled play. But there are also wealth-by-level guidelines. All high level characters (or just fighters?) are expected to have plenty of magic, but high level characters aren't expected.

However I don't think most people play this way any more, we certainly don't. Levelling up is either automatic, or fairly easy. First level characters don't die in their droves as they seemed to in D&D's early days. I believe some rpgers are even giving their level one PCs names now!