L&L 5/21 - Hit Points, Our Old Friend

[YRUSirius]

And that's why I roleplay: To escape the bloody reality.

-YRUSirius

 

[Mercutio01]

Honestly, I have never cared for HP as a unit measure of how much damage a character has suffered. It was video gamey before there were video games. What does losing half your HP mean? Did you get stabbed in the gut, because pretty sure you are going to die from that (especially if you keep fighting). Arrow to the chest? Dead. Hammer blow to the head? Deadsies. I like HP as more of a measure of fatigue. You dodged that blow, or your armor kept you from being stabbed, but you can't keep rolling or jumping out of the way of stuff forever.

There are a few problems with the whole "hits are actually near-misses." First is the terminology. It's called a "hit" which means actual contact. Second is things like poisons. If every hit is a near miss, then poisons just don't work. Third is that for every person that says a hit is a hit, there's someone who insists that it isn't, and no one is technically wrong.

It just feels and sounds really weird to narrate a hit, which makes contact past a dexterity bonus and around the armor, as a near miss, or a parried blow. I mean, armor class means that the armor is preventing some hits from actually touching your skin. I find that I narrate misses that are close to the to-hit threshhold as hits that just don't penetrate the armor, because that's what makes the most sense when you bring what "armor class" means into the HP discussion.

Anyway, that's all personal preference stuff, and not germane to this discussion.

 

[CasvalRemDeikun]

Awsome... I will never look at death saves again.


And this whole thread now reminds me of archer "going unconscious is really bad"

Because it won't let me XP you to say this, I will give you this.

"I have an appointment with my neurologist."

I have even described failed saves with the hallmarks of the different classes of hypovolemic shock.

 

[CleverNickName]

i have been knocked out as well...

Arguably, a face-first fall into concrete at 10mph from 5 ft up is similar to the damage from one hit from a boxer. (snip) And if she was a higher level fighter, or had some martial arts training, she could maybe have rolled with it...

Concussions were the obvious one though if one were incredibly unlucky you can just flat out die from cardiac arrhythmia from such an event which has been documented to happen and is actually a pretty common way for young kids who play sports to die.

Third, for your second edit, I've always understood HP to be less about "bouncing back" to normal and more about bouncing back to a healthy. On the first count, yes full HP would be important. On the second count "back to normal" one could assume...

We could argue about that, especially considering how HP could mean physical damage or luck. A martial artist (higher level human), can't really take more damage, but he's more nimble, and thus doesn't take damage. So it could be damage reduction, or it could just be that he's a higher level, and therefore 10 damage to my wife means something very different than 10 damage to a karateka...

I think everyone is getting wrapped around the axle here as far as hit points are concerned. Let's take a step back and look at things objectively.

There seems to be two opinions on the subject of hit points.

Some would like hit points to more closely emulate the real-life aspects of a person's health and resilience in combat: a mix of endurance, durability, and luck. Let's call this group the Simulation Camp, since they want hit points to simulate real life as much as possible.

Others would like hit points to be as abstract as possible, a value in the game that has about as much to do with real life as skill ranks, save throw bonuses, or any other numerical value on the character sheet. Let's call this group the Gamist Camp, since they want hit points to be an abstraction in a game. (I'm in this camp.)

There is a lot of "us vs. them" banter going on between the camps, and there are a few "evangelists" in here who are trying to "convert the nonbelievers," and that's wonderful. But remember: while we are in here talking about what we think is best, the game designers are focusing on uniting the editions, and are trying to provide a game design that will appeal to everyone. It's a tall order, especially on a topic as polarizing as "simulation vs. gamist."

We should keep this in mind as we discuss the game mechanics, flavor elements, and play style. WotC isn't trying to "fix 4th Edition." They aren't trying to "beat Pathfinder." They aren't trying to "go back to X Edition." They are trying to bring us all together, that's all. So as we discuss our favorites and preferences, we should also try to find ways to compromise. Here is what I propose:

Pretend 4th Edition never happened.

Just kidding! Just kidding...jeez, put down the chainsaws and pitchforks...

We present a few of the biggest elements of simulation (hit points aren't actual physical damage), but leave the rest to the imagination of the DM and the players. The DM can narrate an attack with "You got hit by a sword and take 15 damage," or he can narrate it as "The sword blade strikes the side of your helmet, and the din of metal fills your ears. You stagger back, your eyes blurry, and tighten your grip on your sword. 'Is that all you've got?' you growl, and lunge forward." But either way, you subtract 15 from a number on your character sheet, and the game moves on. The number doesn't care how much of that 15 was damage, or luck, or fatigue, or resilience.

Healing can be the same way. "The cleric heals you for 15 points of damage" can also be "Your comrade stands over you, gripping your shoulder. 'Courage, man!' he says, and the steely determination in his eyes strengthens your resolve. You stand, ready for more." But either way, you are going to add 15 to a number on your character sheet. The number doesn't care how much of that 15 was magic, or adrenaline, or divine favor, or luck.

This is what I want to see in 5th Edition: less emphasis on "look how different stuff is now!", and fewer attempts at forcing a particular play style. It would be nice to have more of a "you can do anything you want!" feel to the rules than they have had in practically every edition since 1986. After all, only the number really matters; everything else is just semantics. I hope they leave hit points, healing, and other game mechanics as undefined and generic as they possibly can, and let the DM and the players fill in the gaps as needed to suit their own style.

 

[Guest 85555]

There were multiple injuries that I was thinking of. Concussions were the obvious one though if one were incredibly unlucky you can just flat out die from cardiac arrhythmia from such an event which has been documented to happen and is actually a pretty common way for young kids who play sports to die. That is particularly why it was such an insane example.

Sure. A blow to the head can kill you. Head blows are dangerous things so I am not trying to minimize that. It is just that the worst injuries are usually from more substantial blows the head, or from taking multiple hits to the head (in the case of punches). The poster's example was being punched once by rocky and getting knocked out. I personally think he is going to be a bit rattled after such a blow, but his scenario isn't unreasonable. Nine times out of ten, a single blow knock out is something where you get up moments later.

 

[Steely_Dan]

The like idea of maybe having a pool of Hit Die to heal overnight, so a 10th level Fighter would have 10d10 to play with, a potential healing of 10 to 100 HP (a sort of bridge between 3rd and 4th Ed, 3rd Ed rolling a 1 on every roll).

 

[technoextreme]

My wife fell off her bike on Saturday (literally, just this past weekend). Knocked herself out. Has bruises and cuts on her face, and big bags under her eyes. Landed face first on the concrete. No concussion (went to the doctor to make sure). Other than the bruises, you'd never know. Arguably, a face-first fall into concrete at 10mph from 5 ft up is similar to the damage from one hit from a boxer.

I'm not entirely sure because I'm basing the criteria that a boxer can do worst than what I've self inflicted on myself. I've cold cocked myself in a manner that actually cracked my nose and started draining fluids out of it in a manner that I never actually knew was physically possible. No weapons. Nothing in hand. I literally cracked my nose with my own body.

 

[Guest 85555]

I'm not entirely sure because I'm basing the criteria that a boxer can do worst than what I've self inflicted on myself. I've cold cocked myself in a manner that actually cracked my nose and started draining fluids out of it in a manner that I never actually knew was physically possible.

I have to ask; why were you punching yourself in the face?

 

[technoextreme]

I have to ask; why were you punching yourself in the face?

Actually it was a knee to the face. Its apparently a rather common injury when one does acrobatic like stunts that I didn't know of until years later. For me I took a Judo throw really horribly and ended up basing my nose right into the knee cap. Kind of makes the whole experience versus inexperience debate kind of hilarious because if I was more experienced I wouldn't have broke my nose in that manner.

 

[Sunseeker]

Who's proposing anything like that?

Glad to see wide agreement on my actual point, anyway.

After a while it gets kinda confusing to track who's proposing what or even what some points are.