Monte on Character Creation

[Dire Bare]

I can't think of a game that I've played in recently where the DM did not give a basic idea of what the campaign or adventure was going to be like a head of time. If that is a problem, I think it's more with the DM than with any system.

Yes and no. It is dependent on how the DM runs their game, but does the game "encourage" or "teach" how to properly match character to the DM's story?

My experiences are the opposite of yours, in almost every game I've played in, new games and ongoing games I've joined, the DM simply asks to you to roll up a character, and maybe gives a short list of allowed or banned books for character options (usually for no rational reason I can derive). And then, as I start playing, I realize my beautifully constructed new character doesn't fit into the theme of the adventure, campaign, or group, and I get cranky.

The few times I've played and the DM walked us through how he envisioned his campaign and how our characters would interact, it was wonderful. I think it's happened at least twice in my many years of gaming. Except when I DM, it happens a lot more, of course!

 

[Kinak]

My experiences are the opposite of yours, in almost every game I've played in, new games and ongoing games I've joined, the DM simply asks to you to roll up a character, and maybe gives a short list of allowed or banned books for character options (usually for no rational reason I can derive). And then, as I start playing, I realize my beautifully constructed new character doesn't fit into the theme of the adventure, campaign, or group, and I get cranky.

Absolutely.

Communicating your plan isn't always easy, even as an experienced DM. And no matter how strong a campaign's rails, they tend to wander, which can leave the people who listened to your advice out in the cold.

On a related note, games I DM tend to share a certain flavor that makes different choices better than others. Perception, Knowledges, and Sense Motive are high picks (class skills be damned) which certainly isn't the case is everyone's games. So letting new players see my DMing style before they set their skills in stone would be great.

Then you have the characters that just don't gel quite the way players expected them too. The loner turns out to be the party leader. The diplomat doesn't have much to say. The thief turns out to be more of a scout.

And all of those are after explaining the broad arc of the campaign to people. If you need to keep it a secret for some reason, all bets are off.

With all that, putting the highest density of decisions before the campaign even really exists seems like a bad bet.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Hautamaki]

Character creation time should be directly related to the lethality of the game. I run a lethal game so it's imperative that my players can create a new character in 5-10 minutes so they can get right back into the action. That said, if the characters last a long time as they sometimes do, my players should (and do) have the option to flesh out more and more of their character. As this happens, they add more and more backstory and detail to their characters they tend to either get bored with their character, or too emotionally invested to risk character death, and then either way retire the character and roll up a new one. Mostly, I think, because it is quick and easy enough for them to do so.

 

[hafrogman]

If you're an entry-level player then you take a pre-gen.

Yeah, I'm afraid I don't really see where Monte was trying to get with point 2 as contrasted with suggested feature 1.

"I introduced a new player to a game, but there weren't any pregens because only games that are marketed to new players have pregens."

Does a game or product need to come with pregens if it isn't for new players? Why? Can't the experienced players make a character for the newbie? Of course, I've seen this in practice too, and it hasn't been popular. The player is left with a character they feel isn't theirs. Does having it be created by someone who isn't at the table make that much difference?

But in the end, I love character generation. I love the feeling that my character has a past, and wasn't just dropped into the world yesterday. In fact, I usually wish more time was spent on it, like a whole session with the group together. Nothing is more frustrating than when everyone sits down to the table already knowing what they want to play before the DM tells us anything about the story or setting we're going to start from. You end up with characters that don't play well with each other and have no particular connection or interest in the larger plot.

 

[Kzach]

In fact, I usually wish more time was spent on it, like a whole session with the group together.

I've tried this about a dozen times with a dozen different groups. Each and every time everyone says, "Sure, yeah, that's a great idea!" Then when it comes time to do it, everyone sits around twiddling their thumbs and uhmming and aahing and using the thinnest and flimsiest of justifications to create character ties like, "Oh, she's my sister..." and then everyone just wants to play.

One day I'll find a good group... one day.

 

[hafrogman]

I've tried this about a dozen times with a dozen different groups. Each and every time everyone says, "Sure, yeah, that's a great idea!" Then when it comes time to do it, everyone sits around twiddling their thumbs and uhmming and aahing and using the thinnest and flimsiest of justifications to create character ties like, "Oh, she's my sister..." and then everyone just wants to play.

One day I'll find a good group... one day.

Yeah, I've seen problems with it too. I've managed to swing it a couple of times . . . and then everyone comes to the game already knowing exactly what they're going to play, or even with a completed character sheet. *sigh*

 

[Ringlerun]

I dont know how Monte did it but im sure he has taken a peak at my notes..

I agree with him whole heartedly even the bits on pre-gens.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

Am I the only one who feels strongly reminded of WEG' template system as used in Star Wars or TORG?

Select any one iconic template, allocate a handful of skill points and off you go! This systems starts with a defined concept, where Monte's newbie friend had selected the elf rogue, and actually spells out the available skills on the very sheet. No to minimum flipping through books.

The only deviation from his new way of handling character generation would be the fact that WEG characters are front-loaded, as the game system doesn't offer lots of non-linear power increases (i.e., additional features added later).

 

[delericho]

I hate pregenerated characters. Replacing an organically designed character with a pregen is like replacing a basketball game with a slam dunk competition. It might be fun in its own right, but if you do that, you've pretty much taken out the heart of the game.

My big problem with pregen characters is that they tend to be very much sub-optimal, and become moreso as the game line expands. And so they quickly become useless, as those players with any system mastery insist on creating their own character, meaning that everyone else needs to do likewise (or get the GM to do it for them), or fall behind - even further behind than they already are due to their lack of system mastery!

And if the pregens are, and remain, optimal, then that almost certainly means that any other options in the game are redundant.

The antithesis of front-loading choices is having a steep power curve.

Not necessarily. Imagine, if you will, a system where you create your first level character by declaring "Elf Ranger", and doing that automatically set everything else - all your skills get set to defaults, you get default equipment, and so on.

Then, at 2nd level, in addition to a small in power (an addition feat, say), you also get the chance to reassign some of those default settings - so you can choose to drop some ranks in Heal to boost your Stealth instead, for example. And as you gain further levels, of course, you can make further reassignments.

The net effect is really simply character creation, increasing specialisation as you go (and the ability to change direction later, if it becomes appropriate), without a massive increase in power (because you're always trading off one thing against another).

 

[Kzach]

My big problem with pregen characters is that they tend to be very much sub-optimal, and become moreso as the game line expands.

But who cares? A pregen for a newbie is just there so they can learn the game quickly. The best way to learn the game is to play it, I find. And once they've figured out how invested they want to be they can either stop playing and the pregen dies horribly or they can make up their own character and the pregen can morph into that character or die horribly and be replaced by Sir Mighty-a-lot.

Point is that you don't sit a newbie down and say, "Here's 5,001 options. Make a character."