How to classify monster strength?

[YRUSirius]

The monsters in the D&D Next bestiary document have xp values. Has anyone calculated or playtested what amount of monsters of what xp values are 'appropriate' for a given 4 party adventuring group of a given level?

Say 4 goblins (400 xp) are an 'appropriate' challenge for a party of 4 adventurers of level 1?

Or 3 orcs (375 xp) are an 'appropriate' challenge for a party of 4 at level 1.

Anyone did some testing what might 'feel'... 'right'?

-YRUSirius

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I had (the one combat i was running):

4 kobolds, 1 elite kobold dragonshield vs 2 players.

425 xp. for 75 xp I errated the dagger damage to 1d4+2. Never really came to melee.

Dangerous situation, 3 rounds of battle. Kobolds decided to attack the poor wizard and the cleric of moradin... the wizard took quite a lot of damage, although kobolds rather rolled slightly below average. The wizard did only use cantrips

So all in all, I would guess, that it is about 200 xp per PC as an average challenge that costs the players resources (cleric was empty casted, wizard took quite a lot of damage). The next battle of this xp value would most probably have costed them all resources for the day.

And when you look at the xp tables: it is 2000xp for level 2. Which is 10 battles. Seems quite appropriate.

Or worded differently. It seems, that 400xp per PC per day would be an average adventuring day that costs the PCs more or less all available resources on lvl 1. (extrapolating from a single battle on a two man party... make of it what you will)

 

[YRUSirius]

Nice idea with the xp table. Need to consider that too (wanted advancement rate etc).

-YRUSirius

 

[the Jester]

I believe I've heard designer comments that 5e is balanced around adventures, not encounters.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Ultimately, it is the DM's job to look at monsters and other elements and decide how to use them. If they just slap an arbitrary XP value on a monster they've already done more than enough.

 

[Remathilis]

I won't doubt that "XP budgets" don't make an appearance, at least as an optional module.

 

[Redbadge]

Ultimately, it is the DM's job to look at monsters and other elements and decide how to use them. If they just slap an arbitrary XP value on a monster they've already done more than enough.

Assuming that I am DM, but I don't care for this one specific job, do you mind if I outsource it?

And I'm not talking about published adventures, just a tool to gauge a range of encounters that I can safely assume will be challenging, but not necessarily lethal, and how many of these encounters I can use per day etc. I mean, I can create my own spreadsheet, and I assume others would do so in the event that WotC doesn't, but this doesn't mean that the tool isn't needed/wanted.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I won't doubt that "XP budgets" don't make an appearance, at least as an optional module.

A triple negative! Do you mean you do doubt XP budgets will make an appearance?

It's interesting looking at people's experiences with what's an "appropriate challenge." My group hacked their way through the kobold caves all the way to the common room, wherein stood 40 kobolds, which the wizard promptly massacred with sleep+burning hands. The chieftain and his elite guards came around the corner, so the party barred the door whilst searching for treasure, then easily took out the boss in the natural choke point. I (as the DM) never felt like they were challenged in any way. They ended the first session with roughly 1600 XP each (almost to 2nd level).

Then in the second session, they went into the orc cave. When they came to the common room, there were 15 battle-ready orcs. The wizard tried to sleep them, but it didn't work (11 HP!). The wizard tried to burning hands them, but it didn't do much damage. The wizard almost died, the fighter almost died, the dwarf cleric went down, the party grabbed him and dragged him out of there, but he died in their arms as the drowsy orcs chased them away (and mercifully refused to pursue them into daylight).

 

[YRUSirius]

Okay, let's try to rephrase the question then. How many monsters (in xp) are too much for a level 1 group of 4 adventurers (TPK). Because I'd want to try to avoid unfair TPKs.

-YRUSirius

 

[P1NBACK]

I seriously don't want a "challenge rating" system in D&D Next.

Here's why:

Challenge is arbitrary.

A group of skilled players and a group of newbs might both go up against the same "challenge rated" encounter, and the newbs get TPK'd and the veterans mop up the floor.

But, crap, these CRs are mathematically balanced for 5 PCs, but I'm running 7 or 3... Now I have to adjust on the fly anyways.

Or, the way you run kobolds and the way I run kobolds might be completely different. You keep them bunched up in a line with no ranged weapons so they all get cleaved or burning hands'd to death while I use clever tactics and ranged weapons and cover.

In other words, these XP values correlating to challenge are basically a waste of time.

Instead, I'd rather have "treasure" values. Certain creatures are naturally tougher of course. No one will argue that. But, as a DM, I don't have to worry about perfectly balancing every single encounter to my veterans of 7 PCs or my newbs of 3 PCs. What I do instead is develop an environment with the appropriate rewards for the monster.

An ogre has 300gp while a kobold has 1gp.

Then, it's up to the players to choose their challenge. Not me. They can go after the kobold chieftain with 50gp or the ogre with 300gp. Is it going to be a fair fight for them? That's up to them, isn't it?

Maybe they go try to fight the ogre at a lower level and risk death for the extra gold? Maybe they decide it's not worth it and pick off the kobolds instead. Maybe sometimes those hard monsters don't carry treasure. So, instead, the players avoid them at all costs.

This is the kind of play I'd like to see. The players learn quickly that sometimes you run because it's not "balanced" to them perfectly. And, the dice fall where they may.

If you want to prevent TPKs, give players clear indications of a creature's power level (a big treasure hoard is one...) and let the players decide whether to risk it or not. And, also provide rules for fleeing that allow the players to make that choice and live to fight another day.