Alternative to Vancian / AEDU

[dammitbiscuit]

Has something like this been done before?

1. Prepare all your spells
2. Use them at-will for appropriately minor effects
3. You can Tap your magic to empower one of your prepared spells, but must wait for an hour before you have the juice to "tap" again (doesn't need to be a rest per se, it's just a matter of time)
4. You can Unleash a spell from your mind for full effect, but can no longer cast it until you re-prepare

Rough Example:

Today I prepare magic missile, burning hands, and shield. Every hour, I can tap one of my three spells for increased effect, but then I can't tap anything for an hour and must rely on at-wills, or choose to unleash a spell.

If I blow the unleashed version of a spell, I will "break the encounter" in the way that 4e dailies and Vancian prepared spells are famous for, but then I can't use that spell until I've rested and prepared it again - a trigger happy mage can drain his spells completely and be defenseless while he rests! Traditional Vancian magic makes draining yourself the default assumption of magic use, whereas with my system going dry is something you bring upon yourself and can avoid if you play conservative with some of your magic.

My prepared spells might look like this:

Magic Missile
At-will usage: 1d4+1 damage unerringly, can Tap for 2d4+Intelligence damage unerringly
Unleash usage: 2d4+Int damage per missile, fires three missiles. target(s) of choice

Burning Hands
At-will usage: 1d4+int fire, reflex for half, 10-foot cone (covers about 3 squares or hexes close to the caster), can Tap to make it a bigger cone
Unleash usage: (as per 5e playtest's current version)

Shield
At-will usage: (per 5e playtest but lasts only 30 seconds), can Tap to use it reflexively as an interrupt, OR Tap to change the duration to 1 hour
Unleash usage: you turn all blurry, attackers have disadvantage against you
__________________________________

Edit: We all hopefully know already what Vancian and AEDU look like. I'm not a huge fan of either one, but the current 5e atwilltrips+Vancian is a fairly nice compromise. I'm still not satisfied, though, so:

• What is good / bad about my system? How does it compare to atwilltrips+Vancian (5e)?
• Has something like it been tried in any other RPG that I could look at?
• Do you remember Spell Points or, worse, Truenaming from 3.5? They were pretty bad, right?
• Have you seen any other cool alternative casting systems that you'd like to sound off about?

 

[Blood & Bones]

We all hopefully know already what Vancian and AEDU look like. I'm not a huge fan of either one, but the current 5e atwilltrips+Vancian is a fairly nice compromise. I'm still not satisfied, though, so:

• What is good / bad about my system? How does it compare to atwilltrips+Vancian (5e)?
• Has something like it been tried in any other RPG that I could look at?
• Do you remember Spell Points or, worse, Truenaming from 3.5? They were pretty bad, right?
• Have you seen any other cool alternative casting systems that you'd like to sound off about?

I like it... except I don't know if everyone would be able to get behind such a system. It's good in that it gives every player more casting options - flexible and relatively simple. However, I'm not sure if it's simple enough and I suspect a number of people will decry it as not being D&D enough.

I don't think it's been tried in any other game, though....

 

[Abstruse]

No thank you. It took me three readthroughs to figure out how that worked, and I run Shadowrun 3rd for crying out loud.

First, it doesn't feel like D&D. It feels too much like a game mechanic. I know that sounds odd, but that's how it is. It feels like something from a video game rather than a tabletop RPG and I can't figure out how it would work in a fiction standpoint. If I can't take a game session (assuming it's played mostly straight) and write it up as a short story, it feels wrong.

Second, it adds a lot of bookkeeping. In combat, I have to keep track of rounds. Out of combat, I have to keep track of minutes on the small scale and days on the large scale. Now I have to keep track of hours.

Third, it only really works for combat spells. That means you're going to have to split it between combat and utility spells (what's an at-will Feather Fall look like?) and that means you're still going to have to keep track of daily spells. And having a controller-build wizard in my current PF game and I promise you, you get a smart player enough spells and they can wreck your whole world as a DM without doing a single point of damage to anything.

Fourth, it will greatly reduce the variety of spells. I like Shadowrun's spell system where they do something similar where same spell at multiple "levels" can do different things but cost more resources. You can take your spell that just lights a small fire and turn it into a flaming arrow or massive fireball, you just have to take more drain to do it. I like that system...for Shadowrun. Magic is very young in the Shadowrun world, but it's very old in D&D. The more spells you have that do a greater variety of things, the more ancient and mysterious the spell system feels. Something like this feels like...I know I'm repeating myself, but like a game mechanic. Insert 1 mana to do 1 damage, 2 mana to do 2 damage, 3 mana to do 5 damage OR 2 damage to 3 different targets...just doesn't feel right.

Finally, something like this is going to shift the game back to an encounter-based design. And if you want to know my feelings on that, check out the thread somewhere on here where there was a big discussion about adding encounter powers to Next.

 

[steenan]

What I like:
- Many tactical options without a need for a long spell list
- Using real time measurements instead of "encounter"
- Tapping exhausting your magical energy in general, not just for a single spell (significantly less bookkeeping)
- A nice flavor that makes me think of prepared spells as something concrete in the game world (that may be, potentially, affected by something external)
- Makes casters playable with only a few slots (less bookkeeping, easier for inexperienced players and, ironically, closer to Vance than what's called "vancian" today)

 

[Doug McCrae]

I like it. I like it a lot.

One of the problems with 4e's encounter powers is that using them at the start of a fight is a no-brainer - there's no downside. This leads to fights that sort of 'fizzle out', they end with at-wills. It's the opposite of the rising tension we see in fiction.

With this system, both tapping and unleashing a power results in a significant drawback. This makes for more interesting tactical choices, and, I think, could lead to PCs saving their taps and unleashes to use as finishers.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It feels too much like a game mechanic. I know that sounds odd, but that's how it is. It feels like something from a video game rather than a tabletop RPG and I can't figure out how it would work in a fiction standpoint. If I can't take a game session (assuming it's played mostly straight) and write it up as a short story, it feels wrong.

A nice flavor that makes me think of prepared spells as something concrete in the game world (that may be, potentially, affected by something external)

Hah!

 

[dammitbiscuit]

- Makes casters playable with only a few slots (less bookkeeping, easier for inexperienced players and, ironically, closer to Vance than what's called "vancian" today)

Oh, hello!

Yeah, having played a 3.5 wizard, I know a giant pile of spell slots can lead to a staggering pile of decisions you need to make. Sure you could prepare the same things every day, but then why play a wizard? Sorcerers can do the same thing every day - with more slots and less work!

As a 4e DM, frequently finding myself surprised by the encounter-breaking things casters can pull off, I think I would find it easier to prep my adventures knowing they only have 3-8 spells to keep in mind, not 20.

Glad to know someone else has read Dying Earth, and knows how crazy-powerful, crazy-limited stuff is normal for Vance. Sure D&D gives you a pile of slots, but it doesn't need to in order to stay true to source material.

Finally, something like this is going to shift the game back to an encounter-based design. And if you want to know my feelings on that, check out the thread somewhere on here where there was a big discussion about adding encounter powers to Next.

Hmm, I've thought about this, and I think you could honestly drop the Tap mechanic without losing much. The real meat of my system is its ability to consolidate your cantrips and your prepared slots.

A newbie player often thinks "I'm a nuker!" or "I'm a controller!" and uses their atwills and their dailies for the same type of effect. A skilled player tries to keep as diverse of a toolset as possible. By consolidating your atwills and your "dailies", IE prepared slots, the gap is narrowed a bit, making new players able to contribute without looking stupid.

I'm serious! A "Tap" spell is mostly just a more-powerful cantrip/atwill. You can use the base at-will version of the spell for very similar effect. It's the "Unleash" version of a spell that will actually be remembered by your DM and party mates at the end of the day.

IMO, a spell that uses real world timekeeping instead of an artificial "Encounter" limit is very different from an Encounter spell. So I don't think you should lump them together. But at the end of the day, the Tap part is really the least important part, if it bothers you so much.

 

[Li Shenron]

An alternative based on recharging times was published in Unearthed Arcana for 3ed:

Recharge Magic :: d20srd.org

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

How is this not just AED, but with linked powers? You have your at-will spells, you have a choice of encounter spells that happen to be better versions of your at-wills (and you only get to use one) and then you have your dailies, which are super versions of your at-wills and then restrict your spell usage for the rest of the day.

You would tap a spell as soon as possible in an encounter. You would save your dailies until the absolute last minute, as emergency powers only (especially if they might not hit, or could be saved against). During an adventuring day your choices would be slowly narrowed until you get out the old crossbow. This is true of Vancian too, but with cantrips you *always* have something magical to do.

If you want to refine this, then tapping should stop you using that power at-will (and you can tap each spell separately, timing out in an hour or whatever), and blowing the daily should prevent you tapping (but not remove your at-will). You also shouldn't be able to blow a tapped spell.

 

[dammitbiscuit]

That's a viable option, too. An hour is a LONG period of time though. Unless the whole dungeon is taking naps waiting for you to wake them up, tapping should be a risk for the player. Your party will want to keep moving, or the denizens might stumble across you while you're lounging about cockily.

In other words, if your DM lets you get away with chilling for an hour between each encounter, your suggestion brings things back into line, Chris. Or you could change the Tap recharge to 2 hours, 3 hours, 4 hours as necessary to suit the pace of your game. It should be short enough that you can do it a couple times during the adventuring day, but long enough for the player to potentially regret wasting it - and be forced to Unleash once or twice just to stay alive.

If the dungeon is filled with living residents who try to kill you for invading their home, an hour of weakness should make players think twice... in a way that 4e's Encounter powers (which are ALWAYS good to frontload at the start of an encounter) never did.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I hope that answers your questions about how this is different from AED!