How do you like your martial characters?

[CleverNickName]

Have you seen Batman fight in the Arkham Asylum video game? He grabs one thug, snaps his elbow, shoves him into a pair of other thugs, then shoots his grappling hook at a fourth, yanks him, and then judo flips him over a railing so he falls and is knocked out. I want that sort of stuff.

A low-level fighter can do all of these things, just by calling the appropriate action. You're describing a grapple, an unarmed strike, a bull rush, a ranged attack (with a ranged grapple), and another bull rush. But only a very high-level fighter (ie., Batman) would be able to do them all at once (by way of multiple attacks per round, and a spiffy weapon).

If a fighter just stands there swinging his sword, it isn't because the rules force him to do so.

 

[CleverNickName]

Also, psionics in 4E are cake. They just did some stupid things that mess up the balance.

Sadly, 4E is not unique in this respect. I've been cringing at the word "psionics" since the days of AD&D Dark Sun.

 

[Hussar]

If I ruled the world and everyone had to do what I want, I'd want this system:

At-will basic attacks - two or three attacks with some sort of rider effect.

Die roll triggers additional effects - the lower the die roll that still hits, the bigger the effect is. So, if you need a 7 on a d20 to hit, and you roll a 15, you have some additional effect, but, if you roll an 8, you will have a larger effect. Thus, the easier the creature is to hit, the bigger your effects will be.

Unfortunately, I think this is too complicated for a baseline character. I'd love a 20 point table for rider effects, but, I really don't think it's going to fly.

At least, not until everyone votes me king of the world.

 

[n00bdragon]

snip

I can't XP you so this will have to do. I'd just be saying the same thing.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Do you want someone who puts out exactly the same amount of power every single round? So just a 2[W] attack plus a list of rider choices, one of which is just +[W] or something? Fighters should just be a perpetual source of beefy at-wills and never have extra oomph?

A martial character with a few reliable abilities wouldn't have the same amount of power every round, since the circumstances they're up against change every round. Now, knock aside that defender's shield (grant allies advantage!). Next, disrupt that spellcaster (impose disadvantage on an enemy!). Then, distract that assassin (marking!).

And then, given 5e's shorter combat lengths, the battle's basically over anyway.

But, yes, fighters should be a perpetual source of beefy at-wills (with a variety of at-wills!) and not really be able to oomph. This is the psychology that is valuable to me in playing a martial class: knowing I can never run out of steam, that I always have the same options, and that I reliably know what they can do. Any fighter or thief who "runs low on manna" isn't going to hit the psychological or play experience spot I want out of a martial class.

Of course, options. I'd love a world where every idea in this thread is supported in some way!

Oh, and 4e psionics may or may not be "cake," but they're still an extra level of complexity on top of the 4e system, no? That's all I was gettin' at there.

 

[Incenjucar]

4E psionics are extremely easy to deal with early on. If you remove the really bad scaling thing they did with them, and cleaned up the system a bit, it would be trivially easy. It really applies to any sort of exertion-based concept so much better than anything else in D&D.

I find the person with a sword not running out of steam to be really really strange, personally. Magical force being endless? Absolutely. Physical force being endless? Bwah? I mean, that's just objectively absurd. Physical exertion drains you of energy. It's very video gamey to be unable to tire from swinging a sword for hours at a time with zero change in effectiveness. I guess I just find it rather a painfully ironic perspective.

 

[Mercule]

Martial characters should be distinctly mundane, but impressively so. They should never obviously violate the laws of physics. Bend them, maybe (we call it "Hollywood physics" at my table), but never break them. Wuxia is something that martial characters should not be able to represent, typically. (I'd actually say Wuxia doesn't belong in D&D, but I don't mind a non-intrusive source book .)

The fighter should also be the entry level character class, but there needs to be a pure martial option that provides depth and complexity for an 'expert' player. Whatever mechanic supports that is the one that should be used. Personally, I think something akin to BECMI weapon mastery is a good idea, even if the numbers use a scale that makes more sense with 5e. Increasing damage isn't enough, though. I'd like the rules to support maneuvers in a more literal sense (i.e. not as another name for a power) that clever martial characters can make use of, tactically.

 

[Hussar]

I'm going to disagree with that Mercule. Or, at least partially.

I agree that low level mundane characters should be limited by physics. It might be Hollywood physics, but, still reasonable. But high level martial characters should get a touch mythic. I have no problems with that 15th level fighter obliterating armies and punching through mountains, just because he's that mythic.

I'd rather that the martial characters didn't have to play a different game than the caster characters.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

• AEDU, 4e-style.

No, just no. This isn't some special hate as it applies to Martial characters, but I really, really hate the entire AEDU structure-- it feels artificial and contrived, and I just can't get over it.

That isn't to say that I have any problem with the idea of at-will powers, and then powers that refresh on a short rest or a long rest. I just can't deal with the idea that each E or D power has its own separate power pool, and the number of uses for each of those separate power pools is 1. None of the narrative or simulationist models that are used to justify the existence of encounters and dailies-- models which I think make a lot of sense-- can explain why these things are so particularly and precisely structured.

• At-will combat maneuvers. Characters rely on a basic attack but can try other maneuvers in place of it (trip, disarm, etc.).

This should be enabled by default for any intelligent character with limbs. Adventuring heroes should not need special training and class powers to do things that normal children learn to do in the schoolyard.

• At-will powers that replace/modify the basic attack (4e-style, but not AEDU).

This is better. Everyone gets MBA and RBA. The magicians get their at-will magic attacks on top of that, and can sometimes replace their basics with spells. The Assassin shrouds and the Paladin smites and the Barbarian rages. The Fighter should have more than one way to deal damage-- he should have a repertoire of special attacks and deadly techniques that he selects from with all of the tactical acumen of the warmage.

• Encounter powers.

Don't mind 'encounter' powers. Can't stand 'once per encounter' powers.

Better than Martial Dailies, though.

• Special effects that trigger on a critical hit.

No. Too unpredictable, too uncontrollable. This would be awesome as a freebie, as part of a combat system designed to be unpredictably and uncontrollably awesome-- something that can happen any time someone scores a critical hit-- but it's weak tea as a class feature.

• No powers, just a basic attack that does it all.

I'm sure some people want this, and if that basic attack really does 'do it all', I bet it would be good enough for most people-- but I think the line between 'simply awesome' and 'simply boring' is a little too thin for the class with the least traditional options.

Here's what I want:

• Basic combat maneuvers, such as disarm and trip, as at-wills for everyone. Fighters (and maybe other 'warrior'-types) get bonuses for these.
• A robust list of advanced combat maneuvers, that are essentially on a scale with the Heroic Martial As and Es from 4e.
  • Fighters get at least two of these at 1st level and gain more of them as class features than anyone else, and Fighters gain level bonuses when using them.
  • 'Warrior'-type classes get one of these at 1st level and pick up a few more over the course of their career. They can invest resources to learn more.
  • Other classes can learn these maneuvers with difficulty, like Fighters and Rogues learning spells.
• At-wills are just so. Encounters (and utilities) spend from a power pool that charges quickly while resting and slowly while exploring. (Like 1/10 minutes and 1/hour.)

So a 'simple' Fighter picks out his best at-wills and spams them, saving his encounter pool for things like Iron Heart Surge and self-healing. A 'tactical' Fighter picks out a bunch of encounter powers and manages them carefully, like a spellcaster.

Oh, and criticals should have awesome side effects for everyone. Fighters shouldn't get better criticals, but they should get more of them.

 

[Incenjucar]

[MENTION=9249]Viktyr Korimir[/MENTION]

4E fan though I am, I can totally understand not being with non-magical dailies and such. To be fair, the intent of it was to keep characters from doing the exact same thing every single encounter, but it does also force certain constraints in doing so. While I've only discussed my perspective on Attack powers, I'd like to think that the idea or a similar one can also be applied to utility abilities in some way.