Female-friendly game design?

[Daeja]

My 2 cents are that I don't mind the existing art - I can suspend my disbelief re: the utility of chainmail bikinis if that's the style of armour in a given RPG. And I prefer it if the art suggests my character is hot .

I think the biggest barrier for me getting started was access to a group. Until I got involved with my husband, I didn't have any friends who played (that I know about... maybe some people were getting together to play and not mentioning it....). I think that if I'd known others and probably at a certain age, specifically other girls who were playing, I would have gotten involved sooner.

 

[Chalice]

From my own observations, I'd say that "rules heavy" is less likely to appeal to female players. Note that I'm not saying that it's simply never going to appeal. No, it appears to be simply less likely. That is all.

And there seems to be less likelihood of said players focussing quite so much on the rules, regardless. Again, I am not talking in absolutes, so please don't take it that way.

Numerous female players have been and are more keen on anything to do with animals*. Except situations that might result in the death of them, that is. Less so or more so, as the case might be, but it's a very widespread tendency, that I've noticed. Perhaps they're a statistical anomaly - who knows!

I have no idea what a game would look like, that appealed A LOT more to female players. Other than "Hollowpoint", whatever that looks like, haha.

Looking at computer and console games, and particularly popular fiction and other media, for example - seeing what women tend to prefer - perhaps some relevant comparisons could be made...? After all, getting anyone into tabletop roleplaying requires some kind of buy-in, and related games/media is often a reasonable starting point, in my experience.


* And vampires! Being them, and stuff like that, I mean. Which reminds me, wasn't Vampire: the Masquerade pretty darn popular with female players?

 

[Gold Roger]

Accessabilty might be a simple factor.

A lot of gamers enter the hobby at a relatively early age, have a group of peers to play the game with and have already some connection to gaming/nerd culture. Now, I'd venture the guess that fewer girls age 12-18 meet those requirements than boys.

I'd also guess that if we looked at gamers entering the hobby at a later age, the demographics are a bit more even.

In my personal experience, female gamers usually care a lot less about rules, but that is far from universal. Other elements of rpg gaming can turn of females from gaming as well, but again, this is far from universal (I've had female gamer outdoing every dude at the table in bloodthirst and vulgar jokes).

Also, it's not like a lot of males wouldn't touch RPGs with a ten foot pole, because of cliches, gamer culture or things actually in the games.

The best thing a game designer can do for games to appeal more to females? Wait. Culture is changing, especilly nerd and gamer culture and as far as I can tell, the numbers of female gamers are going up. It's a progress and stuff like that takes time, more than anything else.

 

[Argyle King]

Accessabilty might be a simple factor.

A lot of gamers enter the hobby at a relatively early age, have a group of peers to play the game with and have already some connection to gaming/nerd culture. Now, I'd venture the guess that fewer girls age 12-18 meet those requirements than boys.

I'd also guess that if we looked at gamers entering the hobby at a later age, the demographics are a bit more even.

In my personal experience, female gamers usually care a lot less about rules, but that is far from universal. Other elements of rpg gaming can turn of females from gaming as well, but again, this is far from universal (I've had female gamer outdoing every dude at the table in bloodthirst and vulgar jokes).

Also, it's not like a lot of males wouldn't touch RPGs with a ten foot pole, because of cliches, gamer culture or things actually in the games.

The best thing a game designer can do for games to appeal more to females? Wait. Culture is changing, especilly nerd and gamer culture and as far as I can tell, the numbers of female gamers are going up. It's a progress and stuff like that takes time, more than anything else.

To the part I bolded: Same here; not long ago I started a thread about teaching my kids to game. I fully expected my 5 year old girl to want to be something girl. She's into princesses, My Little Pony; etc. Instead, she wanted to be "a girl with a big sword who beats up the monsters."

 

[diaglo]

having gamed with Olgar at his house and met his wife...


i would say you wife is very open minded and willing to game.

dynamic may have been part of the issue with our group. we were hard core...er.. roleplay heavy group. remember the married straight police office from Cobb county who left after one session because he felt uncomfortable with how well Ryan roleplayed Bernie? i don't believe he was offended by Ryan i think he felt outmatched. i don't think he felt he was up to the challenge.

your wife listened to enough of our sessions to get the jist of how things rolled with us.

if you take your wife as an average female gamer trying to join a group (which i don't think she is at all avg) you could say the same of the Cobb county cop.

some games require you bring a lot more from the start. some not so much.

as you and others are saying the game has been dominated/played by males. joining a new group of experienced gamers is hard. harder if you don't get some help from the group to fit into the character/referee role.

the referee can only do so much to accommodate all players. the players have to make the other steps.

 

[GSHamster]

Let's look at it from another perspective. Leave aside the moral reasons (I.e. you should do this because it's the right thing to do.)

What else can you offer (both positive and negative) to convince RPG makers to follow a female-friendly direction?

Can you offer them higher sales? No. If you could, Blue Rose would have been a best seller. I purchased and liked that book, but the best evidence is the female-friendly books do not sell better than female-unfriendly books, and in fact, it may very well be the other way around.

Can you threaten them with social opprobrium? No, they're roleplayers! They're already pretty low on the totem pole when it comes to social status.

Basically, the push for female-friendly RPGs fails because you have no carrots, and you have no sticks. If someone has the temerity to disagree with the moral argument, then there's nothing you can do.

The large companies, like WotC and Pazio, are already pretty good, as Janx points out. And you do not have the levers to effect change on the smaller companies, where a single individual who disagrees with the moral argument can hold sway.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

i would say you wife is very open minded and willing to game.

dynamic may have been part of the issue with our group. we were hard core...er.. roleplay heavy group. remember the married straight police office from Cobb county who left after one session because he felt uncomfortable with how well Ryan roleplayed Bernie? i don't believe he was offended by Ryan i think he felt outmatched. i don't think he felt he was up to the challenge.

Perhaps with our group, yes -- heck, being a heterosexual male in a group that was 50% militantly gay could be pretty daunting sometimes -- though she was interested enough that she took the WotC online "Learn to play D&D" course on her own initiative, and I ran a 1-on-1 campaign for her for a little while. She was still intimidated by the mechanics and complexity. RPGs just aren't some peoples' thing, which I certainly accept for her.

It did get me thinking about the hobbies we both have, and I realized that outside of running and hiking, where we usually see a pretty much 50/50 mix of gender participants, my other hobbies (RPGs, video games, RC airplanes, and racing/track days) are male-dominated, while hers (quilting and dog agility) are female-dominated. I'm sure a major contributing factor is the "birds of a feather" factor -- a hobby with a large number of female participants will have an easier time via networking of attracting more female participants versus one that has few female participants. It led me to wonder what the differences were, so I thought I'd ask here ...

Besides sexist portrayals, is there anything else in the art that's a problem? If you removed all the breasts, cheesecake, and chainmail bikinis, does that fix the entire problem?

What about expanding the network?

 

[Elf Witch]

My issue with some of the fantasy art in RPGs is that unrealistic for the situation.

It is one thing in a tropical setting or a primitive setting to have warriors of both sexes with little or no coverings. It another when you portray a wizard in an adventuring party dressed in skimpy silks while she is wading trough a swamp or in frozen tundra or in a dungeon with lots of rough rocks.

Then there are the poses showing the female adventurer's butt and boobs at the same time. Who really stands that way in battle. And why are all female adventurers stacked? The same with superheros in comics. Does having big boobs make you a better adventurer.

Saying that it is the same for men is reaching. Male adventurers are shown as buff and in shape well if they are warriors or wizards who go adventuring they had better be if they want to stay alive.

As for what the OP wrote I don't there is a simple answer of why more woman are not in gaming. Part of it is that some woman feel that gamer culture is aimed at men. Others are worried about being labeled a geek. It may be the age of the geek but that is for males. The fact because of their earning power they can now get hot chicks. It is not quite the same for female geeks.

I do know woman who were turned off by the complexity of the rules. I noticed that a lot of woman who didn't like DnD loved White Wolf. I think maybe because it focuses more on role playing then slaying.

I have seen woman made very uncomfortable by the male culture surrounding gaming especially in the past when all the art was more cheesecake and you had rules making woman second class fighters with the hit to stats. You don't tend to see that as much today which is great.

For some woman the only games they are exposed to is a game run that is more historical accurate and that can be a huge turn off for woman because for the most part it kind of sucked to be a female.

The best way to get woman to play is to make a game that is fun for everyone and is not to complicated to play. And to show woman playing the game in ads and have good artwork. And if you have daughters teach them to play.

 

[Lwaxy]

Tone it down everyone. It is not acceptable that someone is accused of double standards for expressing their views, nor is there any point in making this topic all about sexism and the depiction of men and women in fantasy.

The OP's issue is more related to group dynamics and play styles, so please get back on topic. If we really need to go into fantasy art yet again, make an extra topic for it.

 

[Lwaxy]

My wife has played some D&D from time to time but has never really latched on to it, despite being a big fantasy fan. One of the turn-offs for her has been the increasing complexity of the game; she prefers more casual games and generally won't get very invested.

Some from your group have already said something, but how is the general dynamic in the group? Are the other players minmaxers, rules lawyers, or just good at knowing the rules? Is there a lot of battle where numbers and statistics take up the majority of the conflict?

Because that's what tends to not get the attention of a lot of females, at least at my tables, and makes them feel bored. Even those with a good grasp of the rules.

are there fundamental aspects of game design that could make RPGs more (or less) appealing to female gamers?

The time it takes to make a character (with the use of all the options in 3.5/PF at least) and the effort it takes to make all the stuff you picked work together well at the table (from remembering sneak attacks, this bonus and that reduction, area of effects...) seems to be a major issue. My newest player, for example, wanted to dive right into playing without having to work on anything but character background. BF made her character based on background, and it works. Yet she's like the type A mentioned somewhere in this thread - she needs us to tell her what to roll.

Also, the use of more mundane characters is seen as a plus with the women and girls around here. Like a housewife-turned-hero who compares all the high politics and battle strategies with family and farm management and is usually right on with it. Basically, any concept of non-heroic outgrowing themselves is loved (not only by the females but they introduced it).

My own hypothesis says the gender split in RPGs has little to do with mechanical game design and much more to do with social and group dynamics that tend to make women feel unwelcome when joining a group that then sours the RPG experience. I suspect underlying causes are societal norms, pressures, male gamer immaturity, fewer females involved in wargaming that underlies D&D's roots, and a whole host of other reasons probably unique to the individual.

I don't think society norms play that big a role anymore, it didn't even back in the 80s at least not for me.

Feeling unwelcome in a group that knows each other well is always an issue. A group has to learn to integrate someone, in my experience.

You say you've run 1-1 games with your wife. Have you tried adding one other player to this, preferably one she's already comfortable with? I split up groups like that a lot (as their characters split up) and it helps a lot to make people understand how they all tick.