So there's pretty much no hope for a DM guide 3 with epic support.... im guessing...
- Thread starter Evenglare
- Start date
LostSoul
Adventurer
Eventually I plan to expand my hack into epic levels - but it'll probably be quite a bit different from what most people are looking for.
[sblock=My crazy ideas]The three key features, as I see them now, are: 1. Skills are now Epic: being trained in a Skill allows you do things that only gods can do (untrained would be Paragon, or superhuman feats). 2. Gaining certain levels would require you to do something specific to your Epic Destiny. If you want to be a God you'd have to invest in some kind of philosophy and make a certain amount of that philosophy manifest in the world. 3. Rules for how the other powers - gods, arch-devils, and powerful demons - react to your choices.[/sblock]
Writing your own handbook or guide can be very rewarding. Decide what you think play at Epic levels should be about, figure out what's currently missing, and add it in.
[sblock=My crazy ideas]The three key features, as I see them now, are: 1. Skills are now Epic: being trained in a Skill allows you do things that only gods can do (untrained would be Paragon, or superhuman feats). 2. Gaining certain levels would require you to do something specific to your Epic Destiny. If you want to be a God you'd have to invest in some kind of philosophy and make a certain amount of that philosophy manifest in the world. 3. Rules for how the other powers - gods, arch-devils, and powerful demons - react to your choices.[/sblock]
Writing your own handbook or guide can be very rewarding. Decide what you think play at Epic levels should be about, figure out what's currently missing, and add it in.
Quickleaf
Legend
Why yes, there is Mike Shea's awesome guide:Sly Flourish's Running Epic Tier D&D Games
In fact our own [MENTION=85633]Neuroglyph[/MENTION] posted a review March 2011 over here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/en-wor...running-epic-tier-d-d-games-michael-shea.html
Cheers!
ReportedLuther4
has no status.
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 14
Novice (Lvl 1)
delericho
Legend
I'm afraid it's been clear for some years now that that DMG3/Epic support was never coming.
Can I recommend you at least take a look at Fourth Party? I know that a lot of the guys there would like to have a crack at Epic support. Also, they'd be more than happy if you were to offer your help in their ongoing projects.
Pour
First Post
Sadly, I don't see Epic support in our future, but honestly, amidst all the blog entries and Chris Perkin's DMing column, we know about as much as they do on the subject.
I'd be willing to contribute to an Epic source book once I've finished Epic. My parties are still level 21, though. I've kind of taken the game pretty far out, though, so I imagine their capabilities are more along the lines of 24-25.
For one, I bend the rules a lot thus far, both to create unexpected, interesting, and actual challenges. I just recently ran a session where the minions started off pretty standard, but each subsequent generation of minions spawned to replace them became immune to the damage types that killed their predecessors (even physical damage). That got interesting really quickly, and created a fun, strategic, and suspenseful combat. I use auto-damage auras, blindness and invisibility, add-ons like Shadowfell's Corruption deck, healing surge loss and death save failures, and lower hp/higher damage monsters.
I've balanced this by giving my players a LOT of control of the game setting itself, representative of their power and resources. They're all in control of substantial resources, cities, kingdoms, worlds-spanning faiths, or tied to massive power stores, like my Psionic characters basically tapped into the collective consciousness of every single mortal being in the planes. Similarly, their responsibilities and potential are huge. My Divine power source characters are currently involved in plots to rescue their dying gods by fusing the sparks of other divine entities to their own. Some are even considering trying to subsume primal spirits, even aberrant entities, in efforts to sustain deities and wake them from their comas.
That leads to my next Epic change, the idea that at this point in the game, every player has their own agenda, interests, responsibilities, addictions, weaknesses, and ideas on what should happen by campaign's end. Those Divine characters I mentioned above, they're not above fusing their gods, more or less killing one and converting the divine portfolios over to the other. On some level, they're working together to kind of keep an eye on each other.
For a group this powerful to work together consistently, the campaign provides an Armageddon scenario that must be stopped somehow. That keeps everyone civil and cooperative, and challenges their personal beliefs like any round, dynamic character should, but if and when the apocalypse is averted, and all the power of the universe is on the table, I full expect many of the PCs to turn on each other, or divide into factions, perhaps even PvP. Not that every Epic group should be like this, but I push the idea that they should have wants and needs that stand opposed to other party members, secrets, cards they play close to their chest and as Epic progresses and they see the opportunity to nudge things in their favor, they do so. It's making for a great experience thus far, some being swayed into a more lasting alliance, others positive they can't trust so-and-so with this sort of power. They're kind of like their own junior pantheon.
And maybe lastly, for as powerful as the PCs are, they are NOT the most powerful beings in the setting. And they know it. They have their power and influence, and together they are amazingly strong, but I've set up a good number of villains and competitors which also support cooperation: a gith queen from one million years in the future, commanding a fleet of Voidcruisers, who wants to see the worlds end so that she eventually becomes queen in the first place; an ancient shadow dragon with a hacked alien ship that allows for mass mind control and artificial aging, and his army of wyrmlings turned elder dragons; Void demigods come to the worlds to sew discord and strife until their aberrant sire arrives to devour all space and time; and so on.
Go big or go home, I say, hehe. And I am very fond of creatures larger than Gargantuan. That said, the game does not have a bombastic or anime feel to it. The Heroic tier and Paragon tiers still exist in the setting, and the PCs have more or less mastered them, and owe everything to them, and feel responsible for everything in them, and draw their personal strength from them. They have families, loved ones, homes, debts, and it's kept them relatively grounded (and for others kind of made them a little manic, or brooding, or straight crazy, but that's fun too).
The flip side is, they've now joined an elite community in Epic, and are reaching the waists and shoulders of their primal spirits, primordials, demon lords, and angels in height. So balancing the two is another facet of Epic we all find fascinating. To be so powerful, but so fallible still, to remain the same kind of people they were in Heroic, or to transform, even unknowingly, into a despot or merciless arbiter.
Epic has really pushed the boundaries of what I understood as D&D, and that kind of exploratory space for 10 levels is a really exciting prospect.
I'd be willing to contribute to an Epic source book once I've finished Epic. My parties are still level 21, though. I've kind of taken the game pretty far out, though, so I imagine their capabilities are more along the lines of 24-25.
For one, I bend the rules a lot thus far, both to create unexpected, interesting, and actual challenges. I just recently ran a session where the minions started off pretty standard, but each subsequent generation of minions spawned to replace them became immune to the damage types that killed their predecessors (even physical damage). That got interesting really quickly, and created a fun, strategic, and suspenseful combat. I use auto-damage auras, blindness and invisibility, add-ons like Shadowfell's Corruption deck, healing surge loss and death save failures, and lower hp/higher damage monsters.
I've balanced this by giving my players a LOT of control of the game setting itself, representative of their power and resources. They're all in control of substantial resources, cities, kingdoms, worlds-spanning faiths, or tied to massive power stores, like my Psionic characters basically tapped into the collective consciousness of every single mortal being in the planes. Similarly, their responsibilities and potential are huge. My Divine power source characters are currently involved in plots to rescue their dying gods by fusing the sparks of other divine entities to their own. Some are even considering trying to subsume primal spirits, even aberrant entities, in efforts to sustain deities and wake them from their comas.
That leads to my next Epic change, the idea that at this point in the game, every player has their own agenda, interests, responsibilities, addictions, weaknesses, and ideas on what should happen by campaign's end. Those Divine characters I mentioned above, they're not above fusing their gods, more or less killing one and converting the divine portfolios over to the other. On some level, they're working together to kind of keep an eye on each other.
For a group this powerful to work together consistently, the campaign provides an Armageddon scenario that must be stopped somehow. That keeps everyone civil and cooperative, and challenges their personal beliefs like any round, dynamic character should, but if and when the apocalypse is averted, and all the power of the universe is on the table, I full expect many of the PCs to turn on each other, or divide into factions, perhaps even PvP. Not that every Epic group should be like this, but I push the idea that they should have wants and needs that stand opposed to other party members, secrets, cards they play close to their chest and as Epic progresses and they see the opportunity to nudge things in their favor, they do so. It's making for a great experience thus far, some being swayed into a more lasting alliance, others positive they can't trust so-and-so with this sort of power. They're kind of like their own junior pantheon.
And maybe lastly, for as powerful as the PCs are, they are NOT the most powerful beings in the setting. And they know it. They have their power and influence, and together they are amazingly strong, but I've set up a good number of villains and competitors which also support cooperation: a gith queen from one million years in the future, commanding a fleet of Voidcruisers, who wants to see the worlds end so that she eventually becomes queen in the first place; an ancient shadow dragon with a hacked alien ship that allows for mass mind control and artificial aging, and his army of wyrmlings turned elder dragons; Void demigods come to the worlds to sew discord and strife until their aberrant sire arrives to devour all space and time; and so on.
Go big or go home, I say, hehe. And I am very fond of creatures larger than Gargantuan. That said, the game does not have a bombastic or anime feel to it. The Heroic tier and Paragon tiers still exist in the setting, and the PCs have more or less mastered them, and owe everything to them, and feel responsible for everything in them, and draw their personal strength from them. They have families, loved ones, homes, debts, and it's kept them relatively grounded (and for others kind of made them a little manic, or brooding, or straight crazy, but that's fun too).
The flip side is, they've now joined an elite community in Epic, and are reaching the waists and shoulders of their primal spirits, primordials, demon lords, and angels in height. So balancing the two is another facet of Epic we all find fascinating. To be so powerful, but so fallible still, to remain the same kind of people they were in Heroic, or to transform, even unknowingly, into a despot or merciless arbiter.
Epic has really pushed the boundaries of what I understood as D&D, and that kind of exploratory space for 10 levels is a really exciting prospect.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hey Evenglare.
Eternity Publishing (ie. Me) is planning some epic material after I finish my Vampire Bestiary trilogy.
Whether I'll be able to get to the epic tier material before the end of the year is another matter.
In the meantime there are a few epic nuggets on my website such as Kronos and Orcus.
Evenglare said:
Eternity Publishing (ie. Me) is planning some epic material after I finish my Vampire Bestiary trilogy.
Whether I'll be able to get to the epic tier material before the end of the year is another matter.
In the meantime there are a few epic nuggets on my website such as Kronos and Orcus.
Last edited:
Aberzanzorax
Hero
I don't usually post in the 4e forums, but this thread title caught my eye.
I feel for ya. I think it's somewhat the nature of the "edition treadmill" model. As the edition slows down, some great potential books get left behind. Unfortunately, for you it's solid support for an entire tier. Luckily for you, it seems like there's some good 3pp options!
For me, in 3e, I had hoped for a third book of fiends (the yugoloths, ghergeleths, and all the other neutral types), a book of celestials (probably all of them, as people would be unlikely to buy separate LG, NG, and CG books), a book of fey akin to Libris Mortis and Lords of Madness, and other non monster books (including support for epic levels...we didn't REALLY get that in 3e either, even if you count the "Epic Level Handbook".
So, quite sincerely, I feel your pain. Some awesome stuff gets left behind when they change editions. Good luck with third party publishers, though!
I feel for ya. I think it's somewhat the nature of the "edition treadmill" model. As the edition slows down, some great potential books get left behind. Unfortunately, for you it's solid support for an entire tier. Luckily for you, it seems like there's some good 3pp options!
For me, in 3e, I had hoped for a third book of fiends (the yugoloths, ghergeleths, and all the other neutral types), a book of celestials (probably all of them, as people would be unlikely to buy separate LG, NG, and CG books), a book of fey akin to Libris Mortis and Lords of Madness, and other non monster books (including support for epic levels...we didn't REALLY get that in 3e either, even if you count the "Epic Level Handbook".
So, quite sincerely, I feel your pain. Some awesome stuff gets left behind when they change editions. Good luck with third party publishers, though!
El Mahdi
Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
How is it that 4E players are being "kicked to the wayside"...?
An editionless book means it's usable by everybody, playing any edition...and that includes 4E players. (And even better for both RPG Fans and WotC, it's also easily usable by gamers that play games other than D&D...that's a win-win.)
Is it possible you're just upset that it isn't made exclusively for 4E...? Or that it doesn't have 4E "mechanical" support in the product...?
If so, that's a valid opinion. As valid as anybody elses. But it's hardly a case of kicking 4E players to the wayside. Rather it's more a case of letting everybody else into the room.
Are you against WotC selling to people that don't play 4E...?
Of course though, with a new edition coming out, they are going to phase out printing "new" 4E books. It would be unreasonable to expect them not to do so. That does not mean though, that you're being kicked to the wayside. No edition or game stays in active production forever. It's a fact of life, and nothing personal.
4E players still have DDI support, and WotC has said it will continue...possibly even after 5E is released (though I wouldn't expect it forever, but it would be cool if they did maintain 4E DDI support in perpetuity...and I think it would be foolish to just scrap an online resource that people are still willing to pay for). I'm sure there will remain a 3pp presence supporting 4E also. And WotC is also actively courting 4E players (as well as players of all other editions) to participate in designing 5E, and possibly playing it.
There is definitely no evidence of anyone being kicked to the wayside...
Last edited:
ReportedWiggin6
has no status.
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4
Novice (Lvl 1)
Similar Threads
