Five-Minute Workday Article

[Dannyalcatraz]

JamesonCourage, you basically said what I would have, but to amplify & clarify:

His point was "the world keeps moving", which would be even more emphasized in a fantasy game, where travel times are longer and communication slower.

The campaign in question was a Supers 1900 game in a Wellsian/Verneian world- cribbed largely from Space:1889- where communication was really no faster than what mages can muster in a typical D&D setting...which is where I developed the technique.

The only difference between what I did in that game and my D&D campaigns is that I formatted the memo like a 1900s broadsheet and posted a physical copy on the host's corkboard.

So, more like comparing Fujis and Golden Delicious...

This is going to depend on how they react, then. Do they wait in their rooms? Team up? Flee? Barricade? Set traps? Fight one another? Surrender? Depending on how long it takes you (3 days or 12 days), they have a lot of time to act. And they certainly would in a game I ran.

It would also depend on what is in the caves, why it was taking so long and the actual topography of the caves.

If they took a long time and there were multiple ways of ingress/egress- as you find in many cave systems- they may just launch counter strikes at their tormentor's base of operations.

A less sentient foe may abandon their cave and go rampaging across the countryside looking for a more suitable nest...

He said as much in the post your quoted: "No 15MWD, just taking our sweet time." I guess they just weren't in a hurry, or were engaging in other things (gathering food? exploring? a laid back group RP-wise? I don't know). As always, play what you like

Instead of just staying in the mountains and clearing brigands until they were gone, other PC goals were worked towards in addition in little side quests- one Cleric worked on gaining converts, the rogue went looking for ingredients for a poison he wanted, etc.

At no time did we retreat out of a need to replenish anything, or even for healing- we had 2 clerics in the party- our PCs just had better things to do besides hunt brigands all the time...so they thought.

 

[Stalker0]

To the world outside, away from the caves, it will (probably) matter little whether it's 3 days or 12. For the denizens of the caves themselves, it will matter a lot. The more time the PCs give them, the more time they have to prepare their defenses, the more opportunities they have to counter-raid, the more time they may have to pack up and flee.

What if the cave is full of oozes or skeletal undead? They wouldn't reset.

I think the bottom line here, is that your point about pacing is a great tool in the box...but it shouldn't be the only tool.

Sometimes controlled pacing makes a lot of sense and its a perfect way to keep your party moving. Other times it makes no sense, and so other methods would be useful in order to maintain pacing. Providing more tools in the box helps to cover the gap.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The real issue is that 15 minute adventuring days are unbalanced in favor of the classes that have daily resources. That's it.

You may be able to avoid a 15 minute adventuring day, you may be not.

A 15 minute adventuring day may not be: "Okay, let's attack the outer guards of the enemy base, and then retreat", but "let's contact all our allies in the city, organize a meeting and then head out to beat up some guys". The characters don't stand up, rough up some orcs and go to sleep immediately - but they only use any meaningful resources in that one single encounter that actually involves combat and the need for spells, hit points and all that.

Also, there are also sometimes harder reasons why there is a 15 minute adventuring day. If the adventure contains a very hard combat encounter (and Pathfinder modules used to be full of them), you'll find the casters being out of their big guns rather fast - and you will want to rest after that. Especially if the GM will use wandering monsters, since the spells you have left may be needed to deal with those - and whether you need to rest 8 or 16 hours doesn't matter as much.

Heck, I've had games where a random encounter actually cost so much resources that the party rested another day trying to patch itself up with natural healing and spells. Talk about counter-effective. Of course these weren't games where the Princess was to be eaten by the Dragon within the next 24 hours. (But if it had been, and the party would have pressed on to beat the Dragon, there would probably have been a TPK. Good Job breaking it, GM).

But anyway, whenever there is only one meaningful situation in a day that could benefit from daily resources, those that have daily resources will easily dominate the game.

Now, if the D&D Next caster only has, say, 12 spells at level 10 and the Fighter has 15 Extra Actions Per Day and twice the hit points, it may work out, depending on what these spells do. If there is a "kill 5 non-weak enemies in one spell", probably not.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What if the cave is full of oozes or skeletal undead? They wouldn't reset.

They also might not rest- actually staying in the caves might prevent the party from resting at all...

I think the bottom line here, is that your point about pacing is a great tool in the box...but it shouldn't be the only tool.

No, even though it should always matter, it should not be the only tool. If it is, it will be as someone said, like one never ending season of 24. Great if you want that, but I bet it would be tiresome in the long run.

That is why, besides pacing, you use wandering monsters, interlocking/closely placed encounters, and so forth...but only as needed.

And the thing is, if you use all these tools- but only in ways that make sense within the context of the campaign world (IOW, don't go meta/reactionary/punishing on the PCs)- the players will react as if their PCs were in that world- using resources as if they were RW strategists.

 

[erleni]

The real issue is that 15 minute adventuring days are unbalanced in favor of the classes that have daily resources. That's it.

I think you nailed it down.

One of my favourite campaign styles is that of the City Guard. PCs are working either in ,or for, the city guard in a big town and have to deal with crimes in the city, going from murders or smuggling to demon summoning or transforming the whole population of the city into zombies.
Most of the the time they have one or two combats per day and can then rest into a safe place like the Guard Hall or something similar.
As there's a lot of investigation a typical day is mainly spent gathering information, exploring some areas of the city, discussing issues with other city guard members and so on, so even if they spend 16 hours of the day "adventuring" they may fight only once or twice and the have to rest due to their characters being really tired.
In such a campaign having a wide variance of daily resources creates a big unbalance as those who have them can typically "nova" and do 90% of the job. This was one of my main concerns in 3e when after the 7th level casters really started to dominate combat and also have enough "utility" spells to be able to dominate the esploration part too.
In 4e all classes with AEDU powers are more or less balanced. It's clear that they will use a lot of dailies but I can easily balance encounters against that and get big and difficult encounters who are also nice to fight from the tactical point of view (like bursting in the smuggler's headquarter and clear it out).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ever read the Hawk & Fisher stories of Simon Green? Two cops who patrol a city where gods manifest themselves daily...

And neither is a spellcaster.

Occasionally, the SWAT (Special Wizardry and Tactics) team gets called in to deal with the nastier situations...and Hawk & Fisher go in after the SWAT team fails.

You might like 'em.

 

[erleni]

I think you have written down the real solution and didn´t see it:

"... above a certain level."

I can´t say you are wrong. You are exactly spot on. There is a level range, where you can´t see fighter or wizard dominance, however. Usually between 2nd and 7th level, I have never seen any problems caused by the issue in this level range. Up to 10th level it is still more or less balanced. Only from level 11 and above, the real problems arise.

If you look at ADnD tables, you notice, that casters won´t ever get to level 12, where 6th level spells are available. Interesting, that you don´t get them at level 11, like in 3rd edition. HP progression stops at level 9 too.
So ADnD designers were aware of the issues, while 3rd edition designers were not.

So the trick for 5th edition designers is stopping the progression where fighters and wizards are balanced. Daily resources like fighter´s surge may help the fighter over the course of a day too.

And to take 4th editiona s an example: essential, dailyless classes work very well with essential daily less classes. So I honestly believe, it is possible to make this system work very well.

Actually I see the point and that's why I said "above a certain level". There's a sweet spot (different for each edition) where the game is balanced, wider for 4e and smaller for others.
I don't understand you when you say that AD&D casters will not get to 6th level spells. I played AD&D (2nd edition) for many years and one of our spellcasters (a wizard) reached level 36 (using High Level Campaign rules). Even at 20th level he had a slew of 7th-8th and 9th level spells.

I don't understand why why should limit progression and keep a lot of daily resources when we already have an edition that showed us that we can have balance almost across the whole board, keep the progression, at the cost of sacrificing a part of the daily resources.
This seems to be the way Mike Mearls is heading with his "balancing over the adventure day" idea that I don't like at all. The first problem it creates is that while an encounter is pretty easy to define, an adventuring day changes widely so that now he has to tell us what the average adventuring day length has to be in order to balance the game.
Once again the best way to balance the game is to throw away vancian casting. It seems that WotC is not willing to do that and then the disease will spread all over the game.

 

[Kraydak]

The real issue is that 15 minute adventuring days are unbalanced in favor of the classes that have daily resources. That's it.

While this statement may seem obvious, it isn't really true. Lets look at a 9th level 1e wizard load out (generic adventuring) from a game I played in (disclaimer: I don't have my books on me, so this might be a bit off, not much though):
5) Wall of Force
4) Charm Monster, Major Globe of Invulnerability (I always wanted Wall of Fire, sigh)
3) Dispel Magic, Lightning Bolt (sometimes Fireball), Invisibility 10'
2) Home-brew Magic Missile upgrade (1d4+2 per, longer range)X2, Web, Levitate maybe? Knock? Invisibility?
1) Magic MissileX2, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, One other.

Did he "win fights" when he unloaded? No! He could let us escape an unwinnable fight (Wall of Force). If the fight has several quite powerful opponents, Charm Monster (after Prayers went up for the saving throw penalties) could be *really* helpful. It did save us a few times. A well placed Lightning Bolt (yay bouncing!) or Fireball could clear a swarm of ranged opponents, or do some nice softening up. But that is *3* spells. Only *1* of which might be viewed as something close to a fight winner, but if so, odds were the target would save. The Fighters did lots more damage than the Magic Missiles, round after round. Even when we knew we had a specific, dangerous fight coming up, it was the Fighters who did the heavy lifting. Oh, the Clerics helped, a lot. We could get doubled Prayer bonuses, which really, really added up. Magic Circle against Evil 10' was yummy almost beyond words (longish duration). Strength could get the Thief into str-bonuses to damage which mattered when he could get off a dual-wielding X5 backstab. But at the end of the day, it was the Fighters who held the line and did the damage, be it a big fight or small.

 

[Bluenose]

Did he "win fights" when he unloaded? No! He could let us escape an unwinnable fight (Wall of Force). If the fight has several quite powerful opponents, Charm Monster (after Prayers went up for the saving throw penalties) could be *really* helpful. It did save us a few times. A well placed Lightning Bolt (yay bouncing!) or Fireball could clear a swarm of ranged opponents, or do some nice softening up. But that is *3* spells. Only *1* of which might be viewed as something close to a fight winner, but if so, odds were the target would save.

On the other hand, that's 1e. 3e style saving throws make it much easier to find a spell that'll trivialise an encounter. Odds are that if you pick the right one, the target(s) won't save.


Out of curiosity, for the people who've experienced the 15 minute work day, have you found it in games other than D&D? Outside of situations where combat ended with someone crippled, I haven't. Even in Runequest, where there are lots more resources to track than D&D bothers with.

 

[erleni]

Out of curiosity, for the people who've experienced the 15 minute work day, have you found it in games other than D&D? Outside of situations where combat ended with someone crippled, I haven't. Even in Runequest, where there are lots more resources to track than D&D bothers with.

Not really. Somebody being crippled was more or less the only reason to rest.