Aid another from a Symbiont? Intellegent Item? Familiar?

[RUMBLETiGER]

Exactly which "friends" can use the aid another function? If you have a creature of some type, such as those suggested in the title, that creature has the ability to communicate with you and reason to cooperate with you, is that sufficent for that creature to use Aid Another In Combat or Aid Another In Skill Checks?

Reason says such a thing would be crazy (especially if you start stacking lets say 4 symbionts, an Intellegent item with a Wizard... see where I'm going) but the rules as I'm reading them are vague as to what constitutes a friend. Stacking Aid Another on a Listen Check, for example, would be nifty.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Familars are limited in what they can do but they can aid another in certain skills. Symbiont's or Intelligent Item's abilities are even more limited

In combat I would say that neither Symbionts nor Intelligent Items could distract opponents because at best they could ATTRACT opponents since they must be held/on characters to interact (I may not be aware of a D&D symbiont that you are referring to which has different abilities)

 

[Greenfield]

Off the top of my head...

They can Aid Another on things like Spot or Knowledge checks, things that don't necessarily call for physical action.

And yes, I could see a Familiar giving Aid in combat, but that's putting your familiar in combat, a seriously bad idea.

Use common sense though: Your Wolf companion isn't going to Aid you in picking a lock.

 

[Omegaxicor]

[MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] Yea exactly, I reread my post and I never answered the actual question raised :S

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I'm all for "Skills that make sense". My Intellegent Sword will not aid me in a Forgery, my Owl Familiar will not aid me in a Bluff. If the critter isn't moving, it's not likely aiding me in combat.

But how about Search, Spot, Listen? Could a Familiar aid in Spellcraft?

Now, here's the rub. What happens if, hypothetically, a PC has 12 Throwing Scarabs attached to his arms? (not so Hypothetically, I'm toying with a Rogue Master Thrower right now).

The Throwing Scarab itself has a +17 Hide, +5 Listen, +5 Spot. What happens if 12 Throwing scarabs Aid the host for a whopping +24 to a Listen check?

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=6674868]RUMBLETiGER[/MENTION] I'm not sure why your sword couldn't aid you in craft checks - they're INT based. It might remember something from the time it was forged, and give you insight based on that (or any variety of other times it's been around a forge).

Some checks don't make sense -at all- for Aid Another. You can't exactly aid someone in Search, Spot, or Listen, although you can provide an additional check for them. They either see or hear something, or they don't. The same could be said for Autohypnosis, Control Shape, Concentration, Decipher Script, Knowledge, Psicraft/Spellcraft, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Swim, or Tumble. All things you either can or can't do, not a whole lot of "help" room.

I'd try to keep it at least a little logical. An intelligent sword could help you with Int, Wis, or Cha checks (within reason), an Ape could help with Str and Dex checks, etc, etc. As long as you keep it within the realm of expertise for the helper, I don't see a problem with it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I would only permit an aid another action when the aiding entity is capable of doing something along the lines of the task in question.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

So, the consensus on the first general question, "Can these companions Aid you, yes or no", appears to be yes, in some cases.

The rest of this discussion is on which cases that should be possible. The three general responses are:

1- Within reason for the activity and the companions physical/mental ability.
2- If the skill makes sense as something anyone could be helped with.
3- If the companion has any ranks in that skill.

 

[Empirate]

I'm all for "Skills that make sense". My Intellegent Sword will not aid me in a Forgery, my Owl Familiar will not aid me in a Bluff. If the critter isn't moving, it's not likely aiding me in combat.

But how about Search, Spot, Listen? Could a Familiar aid in Spellcraft?

Now, here's the rub. What happens if, hypothetically, a PC has 12 Throwing Scarabs attached to his arms? (not so Hypothetically, I'm toying with a Rogue Master Thrower right now).

The Throwing Scarab itself has a +17 Hide, +5 Listen, +5 Spot. What happens if 12 Throwing scarabs Aid the host for a whopping +24 to a Listen check?

Provided those scarabs have an interest in aiding you, a willingness and ability to communicate to you all they hear, and no intervening sound barriers (like your clothing), I'd have no problem letting them aid another.

@RUMBLETiGER I'm not sure why your sword couldn't aid you in craft checks - they're INT based. It might remember something from the time it was forged, and give you insight based on that (or any variety of other times it's been around a forge).

Some checks don't make sense -at all- for Aid Another. You can't exactly aid someone in Search, Spot, or Listen, although you can provide an additional check for them. They either see or hear something, or they don't. The same could be said for Autohypnosis, Control Shape, Concentration, Decipher Script, Knowledge, Psicraft/Spellcraft, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Swim, or Tumble. All things you either can or can't do, not a whole lot of "help" room.

I'd try to keep it at least a little logical. An intelligent sword could help you with Int, Wis, or Cha checks (within reason), an Ape could help with Str and Dex checks, etc, etc. As long as you keep it within the realm of expertise for the helper, I don't see a problem with it.

Forgery isn't about forging a weapon, it's about crafting a duplicate of official documentation, letters etc.

Also, aiding another doesn't necessarily entail granting a direct benefit to the one making the actual skill check. For example, if you set your familiar to "watch your back", while you keep a keen eye out in front, the familiar's aid another simply represents that you don't have to watch all angles of approach simultaneously. Since (if) the familiar has weaker senses than you, this only comes down to a +2 circumstance bonus on your own check, but it will help you be aware of approaching enemies.

If several people/creatures work together to make possible a positive result on whatever they're attempting *together*, the most logical mechanical representation for that is the aid another mechanic.

I could easily imagine a whole group of PCs scouting through the woods. The Ranger has the highest Spot/Listen, so mechanically, he makes the checks while the other PCs aid another. In-game, the DM might still see fit to describe it the following way: "You're on alert and keep a constant lookout on all sides. Ranek [the Ranger] keeps warning one or another of you about likely angles of approach, posts one of you a bit to the back to keep watch over the rest of you, and takes point himself. [after rolling checks] Thanks to Ranek's guidance, Liovar [the Rogue] spots a glint of sunlight on metal just in time and manages to shout out a warning! Roll for initiative, everybody."

Granted, things like this don't work all the time, but if the situation and the used skillset is right, and the group is intent on working together and accepting of one guy taking the lead, it can work. Not for stuff like sneaking, but I'd totally do it this way for scouting.


EDIT: I just remembered an ad hoc rule I came up with a while ago, during an extended bout of in-game diplomacy: I allowed the party face to make the check, while the others were allowed to contribute (by thoughtfully stepping in once or twice, and by providing a suitably heroic-looking backdrop for the party's spokesperson). However, those failing their check to aid another would actually "hinder another" in this case. As a consequence, the half-orc Barbarian refrained from trying the check at all and just stood around silently, which was probably a good idea. The Cha 14 Conjurer, OTOH, felt like he could contribute at least a little, and since he was a man of outspoken opinions, this made very good sense in-game.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Provided those scarabs have an interest in aiding you, a willingness and ability to communicate to you all they hear, and no intervening sound barriers (like your clothing), I'd have no problem letting them aid another.

I'm concerned about the potential for abuse (even though I'm the one considering it).

My Rogue/Master Thrower will be breeding these Aberrations, and Magic of Eberron says one Throwing Scarab should be worth 1,000gp to count as treasure. They can communicate telepathically with the host. He'll take pretty good care of them. The Alignment is listed as "Usually Lawful Evil" and although the PC will be NG, they have an Ego score of 2 and an INT of 5 so I don't foresee them being ambitiously against the PC host, and would have reasons for their own survival to help him. He'll wear a Rogue Vest and be sleeveless to have quick access to the creatures attached up his arm and the weapons they provide as free actions.

So, the abuse: Should, for 12,000 worth of treasure items, a PC be able to get a +24 to certain skill checks?

I imagine with Listen and Spot checks, these tiny voices telepathically whispering "Do you hear that? Over there." or "What was that movement to the right?" and then all of them as well as the host paying attention. It would be much easier then rolling a Listen check for my PC, then 12 other listen checks at a +5 for each of the scarabs, but it would also be much, much more powerful.

Obviously this all comes down to my DM's call. I just want to make sure I'm not too obnoxious before I bring it up to him.