Mearls' L&L on non-combat pillars

Yes its quite obvious with all the fixation on resources, at-will magic, the default XP system, that the game is being primarily fight-centric. This isn't shocking in the least. With hordes of fans online ready to scream bloody murder until combat is balanced on the head of a pin its not surprising that little time is left to devote to other parts of the game.
I think another factor, and perhaps the more important factor, is that some fans seem very hostile to exploring new options, or developing existing ones, in the non-combat domain.

Tackling non-combat (and chunking very broadly - not all people in each group want what I'm indicating)

The OSR crowd wants Rulings. And not Rules.
The 4e crowd wants meta-Structures to support rulings. And no "I win" spells.
The Simulationist crowd wants Rules and not Rulings.
The anti-Narrativist crowd want no meta-structures and generally want Rules.
The Combat as War crowd want "I win" spells and strictly simulationist pacing.

I could go on...
That's a pretty good summary of the current state of play, I think.

What's interesting is that it does suggest some ways forward.

First, we need advice on adjudication (of skills, of spells, etc - page 42, the "rule of the Ming vase", and everything else that's relevant). This will support the OSR and 4e crowd. We need some canvassing of metagame-driven adjudiation. Some OSRers might buy this ("the rule of the Ming vase has a strong metagame component), and the 4e crowd probably will. Then we need a meta-structure to support this. The OSRers part company at that point, but the 4e-ers like and use it.

Second, we need rules which include simulationinst pacing. These are for the Simulationists, anti-Narrativists and Combat-as-War types. (The OSRers can pick these up if the want them. The 4e-ers can ignore them.) The main issue here is if certain game elements - most likely spells - have to be "double coded" to work for both the rulings approach and the rules approach.

Finally, there's the "I win" spells. These need either to be clearly labelled so those who don't want them can ignore them, or else the rulings advice which deals with metagame-driven adjudication has to explain how that sort of adjudication can be used to constrain "I win" spells - which in turn have to be written in such a way that, when adjudicated in that non-simulationist fashion, they are no longer "I win".

That's not trivial, but it's not completely hopeless either!
 

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I cannot xp Pemerton nor Neonchameleon for the next 15 years but those last two posts were quite good.

If the core can be as pared down as possible such that the "contentious" or "in dispute if its DnD" components of the game can be easily detached (if they are core) or attached (if they are not core), that would be ideal. Non-combat pillar adjudication mechanics (a la Skill Challenges) would obviously fall into the latter category of both.

I personally would like the "contentious" spells (specifically the ones that affect the non-combat pillars) to be easily detached/moved around (they will be core) or I would like alternate versions where they are constrained or hard-coded (rather than unbounded and open-ended).
 


Seconded. In particular, it would be great if something very much like they have categorized was explicit in design, testing, and the final game. These are real differences, that really matter in making and playing the game. Smudging them together helps no one.

Unfortunately, I cannot XP Crazy Jerome for the next 15 years either. Explicit, concise rules text, especially when addressing the implications of the inclusion of contentious mechanics/spells, is an absolute must. Off topic (my apologies Pemerton) but what really bothers me is when I see people maintain three incoherent positions at once:

- An unbalanced gaming platform should be our working foundation.
- Rules modules will balance the unbalanced gaming platform for those who wish it.
- The rules texts must not be overly "meta-gamey" nor read as a clear, dry, engineering manual (therefore at least rendered marginally opaque through the mash of crunch with stylized, "immersive" prose).

How in the world does that compute? I would love it if the engineering infrastructure of the modern world was designed off such a mission statement. I'm sure those projects would turn out balanced and thus produce predictable, reliable output with no economic or biological casualties.
 

In particular, it would be great if something very much like they have categorized was explicit in design, testing, and the final game. These are real differences, that really matter in making and playing the game. Smudging them together helps no one.
what really bothers me is when I see people maintain three incoherent positions at once:

- An unbalanced gaming platform should be our working foundation.
- Rules modules will balance the unbalanced gaming platform for those who wish it.
- The rules texts must not be overly "meta-gamey" nor read as a clear, dry, engineering manual (therefore at least rendered marginally opaque through the mash of crunch with stylized, "immersive" prose).

How in the world does that compute? I would love it if the engineering infrastructure of the modern world was designed off such a mission statement. I'm sure those projects would turn out balanced and thus produce predictable, reliable output with no economic or biological casualties.
I agree with these calls for clarity.

As to the "does not compute" view about drafting rules, I think that Ron Edwards has explained it, at least to an extent:

A lot of game texts in this tradition reach for a fascinating ideal: that reading the book is actually the start of play, moving seamlessly into group play via character creation. Features of some texts like the NPC-to-PC explanatory style and GM-only sections are consistent with this ideal . . .

This ideal poses . . . problems: one for the GM in particular . . .

The GM problem, only partly solved by GM-only sections, is that it makes it very hard to write a coherent how-to explanation for scenario preparation and implementation. Putting this sort of information right out "in front of God and everybody" is counter-intuitive for some Simulationist-design authors, because it's getting behind the curtain at the metagame level. The experience of play, according to the basic goal, is supposed to minimize metagame, but preparation for play, from the GM's perspective, is necessarily metagame-heavy, and if reading the book is assumed to be actually beginning to play ... well, then a certain conflict of interest sets into the process.​

I want to emphasise that to explain isn't to justify. On the other hand, these conflicting desires for drafting styles pose a genuine problem for WotC, because for some people the rules text is part of playing the game (in some sort of "immersive", maybe illusionist fashion). Mearls is clearly aware of the issue, because it lies behind (or, at least, seems to me to lie behind) his suggestion that the metagame stuff about monsters (roles, for example) would be in an appendix rather than in the monster entry.

If I understand it properly, part of CJ's point (on this and other threads) is that even if the rulebooks are written in an opaque, stylized, "immersive" prose, the designers have a conception of what they are doing which is clear and well-understood.

Crazy Jerome, assuming I've got that right, do you have a view about how some of that understanding might be communicated to users of the rulebooks while remaining consistent with the desires of some to get the sort of rulebook experience that Mancatbear and Edwards are talking about? Do you think a "technical appendix" (or what Monte Cook used to call "designer notes") can do the job?
 

If I understand it properly, part of CJ's point (on this and other threads) is that even if the rulebooks are written in an opaque, stylized, "immersive" prose, the designers have a conception of what they are doing which is clear and well-understood.

Crazy Jerome, assuming I've got that right, do you have a view about how some of that understanding might be communicated to users of the rulebooks while remaining consistent with the desires of some to get the sort of rulebook experience that Mancatbear and Edwards are talking about? Do you think a "technical appendix" (or what Monte Cook used to call "designer notes") can do the job?

Not so long ago, I'd have pretty much taken Mearls position (or at least his position as you've have speculated it is, since we don't really know). There are, however, two problems for that in Next: The open playtest (which is very much needed) and maintaining the discipline of the categories throughout the life of the product. Then there are two lesser problems of marketing, not of design: Maintaining a pretense of such simulation while simultaneously telling those that want it where to find the transparency, as well as communicating the playstyles of each module in a clear manner.

So I think a technical appendix (or more likely, several such appendices) is a necessary but not sufficient piece. I think the split is not so much on Edward's creative agendas as in the split between illusionism and its detractors. (Illusionism proponents are often simulatiionists, but there are simulationists who maintain a divide between the DM clarity versus the illusion of the game for the players. I was such a person in my more simulationist day. Things like injunctions for the players to keep their noses out of the DMG and MM are very much in that vein.)

Ideally, I think it would go something like this, if they really want to please the widest range:

1. As the playtest adds modules, it branches into two paths, one for illusionism fans and one for those who are more appreciative of metagame components. The rules themselves are the same (else terribly unwieldy), but already there are modules called out as specifically for illusionism or metagame, with a core that is neutral on this issue and some modules that are explicity called out as "neutral" in the same way. A lot of these "neutral" modules will be handling the other differences and cross-overs that you and Neonchameleon were discussing above.

2. Or more realistically, there are sections of modules called out as each, because the illusionism is built on top of the neutral components, and sometimes even rationales for the metagame components. For example, hit points themselves, clearly understood in many ways, are very much a metagame component. Some of the rationales you can apply to hit points are more acceptable to illusionism than others--especially if you tweak the underlying mechanics to favor a given rationale while not calling attention too much to why you are doing so.

3. Thus in the appendices you have clear discussions of how all of this is organized, arranged, designed, and implemented--including descriptions of compromises to the design for the sake of tacked on rationales. No pure illusionist--if such really exist--will ever want to read this, and should be warned away at the start of the appendices and then in each one specificially (some appendices being "worse" than others on this count, by their nature). For example, hit points are so internalized by many groups now, I doubt there would be many dedicated illusionists who would object to a clear presentation of how hit points are tweaked in the various illusionists modules to make them fit their game. (Please remember that I'm talking in extremes here for explanation purposes, but the vast majority of people are somewhat on either side of the middle.)

4. That's great for explanations, not so good for communicating content in play. For that, I think you need some really slick organization and presentation, starting with keywords, good indexes, clearly labeled chapters and sections, and going on from there. Nor do I think "put the other stuff in a supplement" is going to work here, for practical reasons. The illusionists are big buyers of supplements, as a group. So you might be able to produce some supplements geared almost entirely to them. After all, with those clear appendices in the rules, those more inclined towards a metagame approach will read between the lines anyway, while those more neutral on that question will read between the lines where it matters to them and just ignore things that don't apply. But there needs to be some fairly subtle means of directing the attention of everyone to the things that matter to them, and that's largely a function of effective organization and presentation. More hard-nosed, when a section is geared heavily towards the metagame crowd, the illusionists need to be warned away, same as with the appendices.

That sounds terribly difficult and complicated when written out like that, but I think it is mainly a case of needing lots of discipline and hard work. The various appendices and concept therein are not usually that hard to explain, if you don't mush them together. After all, the underlying basis for "pretending to be an elf" in most RPGs is not that complicated. It's all the stuff we build up around it to create the decisions and illusions and the world we play in that makes it tough to manage.

Finally, I do think there will be key points in the design where all of this simply won't work. There will be a sticking point where no amount of sleight of hand is going to conceal the curtain--or conceal that you ripped the curtain back, whichever is chosen. In those place, there needs to be a hard branch explicitly called out as such. If you like A, go here. If you like B, try this instead. If, for example, that is something like having two different "fighters," then we all need to accept that the two versions are probably going to be incompatible with each other in the same game--and likewise incompatible with other "A" and "B" elements for other classes. That is, if there needs to be a metagame-driven version of the fighter, then he ain't gonna work with an illusionist-driven version of the wizard. (A particular group may kludge them together and enjoy it, but looking at the design, they aren't compatible when used as written.)

Naturally, all of this is driven by my growing conviction that the opposing adherents to illusionism versus explicit metagame mechanics is the key divide that must be bridged for Next to meet its goals. I'm convinced this trumps Forge classifications, the GDS classifications that precede them, TotM versus Grid, genre preferences, story-style preferences (i.e. grit versus epic), and everything else. I also am assuming here that deep immersionists are primarily subsumed in the illusionism adherents, but I don't fully understand the impetus behind deep immersion, and thus may be missing something crucial there. I've used "illusionism" instead of "immersion" here because so much of what people refer to as "immersion" is what I call various stages of "shallow immersion," and thus I think the word creates an illusion of shared approaches that isn't always real. To the extent that I'm incorrect about everything in this last paragraph, then my whole approach above is suspect. :D:eek::hmm::angel:
 
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"Something substantial that might actually work" according to whom? The DM? Are we back to playing "guess how the DM imagines the world to work", again? I got fed up of that game years ago...

Guessing how the DM imagines the world to work is, indeed, a stupid game. However, using the DM's descriptions to figure out how to do something creative in the world is pretty awesome. And those two games use pretty much the same set of mechanics...

-KS
 

Naturally, all of this is driven by my growing conviction that the opposing adherents to illusionism versus explicit metagame mechanics is the key divide that must be bridged for Next to meet its goals.

<snip>

To the extent that I'm incorrect about everything in this last paragraph, then my whole approach above is suspect.
I don't know if I agree that it's everything, but you're persuading me that this is pretty fundamental. (On the "With Respect to the Door" thread I've been running your line in response to another poster's (mis-)characterisation of the debate as occurring on a "fluff vs crunch" spectrum - which seems to me to already presuppose that play is either illusionist or fiction-less).

I'm convinced this trumps Forge classifications
I don't have a strong view of whether or not it trumps Forge classifications as agendas for actual play. But I think it certainly reinforces that those classifications don't map to design in any straightforward way.
 



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