A-M vs. Dead Magic (?)

It has been relatively common in D&D for defensive spells to come prior to offensive ones. I believe this is fine, really, because it allows for some mild form of check against the relative strength of a high level caster.
Of course, that assumes lower level ones are actually bothering to memorize defensively.
 

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1. I recognize nothing in the description of A-M that says you can't cast spells / use Sp / Su powers or activate magical devices with in A-M, or that such actions are liable to fail. All it says is "suppresses". So, by RAW, it's easier than what I propose. This tells me that in this case [RAW = RAI]. I just don't agree that it should be trivial.
2. Antimagic Field is dismissable, meaning that for all intents and purposes it's not only an active, but also a reactive spell effect.
3. I see no reason why a 6th level spell should be the ultimate off-switch.

Hmm. Let's look at point 1. What follows is from a section of the SRD other than the spell description for Antimagic Field, and if often overlooked in discussions like this.

SRD said:
ANTIMAGIC
An antimagic field spell or effect cancels magic altogether. An antimagic effect has the following powers and characteristics.
No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic (but extraordinary abilities still work).
• Antimagic does not dispel magic; it suppresses it. Once a magical effect is no longer affected by the antimagic (the antimagic fades, the center of the effect moves away, and so on), the magic returns. Spells that still have part of their duration left begin functioning again, magic items are once again useful, and so forth.
• Spell areas that include both an antimagic area and a normal area, but are not centered in the antimagic area, still function in the normal area. If the spell’s center is in the antimagic area, then the spell is suppressed.
• Golems and other constructs, elementals, outsiders, and corporeal undead, still function in an antimagic area (though the antimagic area suppresses their spellcasting and their supernatural and spell-like abilities normally). If such creatures are summoned or conjured, however, see below.
• Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal undead, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away.
Magic items with continuous effects do not function in the area of an antimagic effect, but their effects are not canceled (so the contents of a bag of holding are unavailable, but neither spill out nor disappear forever).
• Two antimagic areas in the same place do not cancel each other out, nor do they stack.
• Wall of force, prismatic wall, and prismatic sphere are not affected by antimagic. Break enchantment, dispel magic, and greater dispel magic spells do not dispel antimagic. Mage’s disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

Okay, let's look at the highlighter sections.

The first one said, "No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic (but extraordinary abilities still work)"

The third one said, "Magic items with continuous effects do not function in the area of an antimagic effect, but their effects are not canceled (so the contents of a bag of holding are unavailable, but neither spill out nor disappear forever)."

So, can you activate a magic item? Yes. It won't work, and you'll essentially be going through the motions, but you can do it, just as you can scream in an area of Silence.

Magic items either work as a continuous effect, or they cast a spell or spell like effect. Between the two sections quoted, both of those possibilities are covered.

Can you cast a spell? Again, yes, just as you can scream in an area of Silence. You can go through the motions, it just won't achieve anything.

Now technically, you could cast a spell while inside, so long as the target was outside, and the spell "originated" outside. That is, a spell like Chain Lightning could be cast at a group of targets outside the AMF, since the spell manifests from the first target, and spreads to the other targets from there.

A spell like a regular Lightning Bolt, however, is a line effect, starting at the caster, or more precisely from a corner of the casters square. If that origination point is inside the AMF, the spell fails completely.

Any spells targeted at anyone or anything inside the AMF fail, because you can't cast "into" an AMF.

So what part of the printed rules don't you "recognize"? The part that says items cease to function in an AMF?

The part that says that spells that originate inside an AMF fail?

The part that says you can't cast spells into an AMF?

Or am I misreading something? Was your statement that you don't "recognize" anything in the spell somewhat akin to the defendant in court declaring that he doesn't recognize the authority of that court?

That is, were you saying that you didn't understand the rules, or were you declaring your independence from them?
 



.
Okay, let's look at the highlighter sections.
Let's indeed.
Pardon me, but I'd like to reshuffle things a bit.


Was your statement that you don't "recognize" anything in the spell somewhat akin to the defendant in court declaring that he doesn't recognize the authority of that court?
Homebrewing in and on itself is a firm declaration: "I don't recognize the authority of that court".


That is, were you saying that you didn't understand the rules,
No.


or were you declaring your independence from them?
Sort of, but not exactly.


So what part of the printed rules don't you "recognize"?
- The part that says items cease to function in an AMF?
- The part that says that spells that originate inside an AMF fail?
- The part that says you can't cast spells into an AMF?
No, those I understand just fine.


Or am I misreading something?
You have.


Now technically, you could cast a spell while inside, so long as the target was outside, and the spell "originated" outside. That is, a spell like Chain Lightning could be cast at a group of targets outside the AMF, since the spell manifests from the first target, and spreads to the other targets from there.
. . .
Any spells targeted at anyone or anything inside the AMF fail, because you can't cast "into" an AMF.
So, basically:
1. You can cast inside A-M.
2. With the right strategy, you can ensure 100% success.
It's #2 that I have problems with.
Also, I wanted to refine the definition of what happens to AoEs of spells/powers that overlap with A-M.
.
 

The definition of AoE spells and AMF effects is pretty clear:

1) If the origination point or "center" of the AoE is inside the AMF, the spell fails 100% of the time. You have cast into an AMF, and that is flatly and clearly defined as something that doesn't work.

2) If the origination point or "center" of the AoE is outside the AMF, the spell functions normally outside the AMF, but is suppressed where the two overlap.

That's also very clearly stated (though somehow not so clearly stated that a rules lawyer can understand it. :) )

How would you "refine" this definition?
 


nonsi256 said:
Greenfield said:
How would you "refine" this definition?
"Have", not "would".

Post [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=11]#11 [/URL] .
To quote post #11 :
Post11 said:
A-M and Dead Magic are significantly different from one another.
In A-M it is difficult to cast spells and impossible to maintain magical effects.
Dead Magic zones are simply places where the weave (the "energy" source) doesn't exist. Therefore, Inside Dead Magic zone it is impossible to cast spells, but spell effects are unaffected in anyway by Dead Magic zones.

In A-M, you must make a successful caster level check vs. DC [11 + ½ the caster level of the A-M + the SL you're trying to cast]. In A-M, a successfully cast spell activates only if its initial point of effect is outside the A-M. Side-effects (such as AoE energy damage – fireball blast for instance) ignore the A-M field, while actual magical effects (such as Incendiary Cloud) are suppressed by the A-M.
So the proposed change wasn't merely proposed, it was a done deal already? Okay.

Proceeding on, by "refine" you mean "completely ignore and re-write". I understand.

You're free to homebrew as you see fit, just as everyone else is. But gutting a 7th level spell so it's weaker than its 4th level predecessor (Minor Globe of Invulnerability will stop a Fireball, but AntiMagic Field won't) seems a bit extreme, to me.

In practice, I know very few PC casters that use Antimagic Field. It usually drops their AC down to nothing, and more importantly it shuts down any stat boosting items they have on. That usually costs them spell slots when their Intelligence or Charisma drops and they no longer qualify for as many bonus spells. And though the stat will return when they leave the AMF, most DM's play that you don't get those spells back until you next rest and/or repair.

In short, you're canceling out all of your own defenses, disarming and crippling yourself. Seems like a lousy use of a 7th level spell slot. It's far more of a DM's tool and/or plot device in the games I've played in.

Now you think it should also fail to defend them from other casters' spells?

Errrm, okay, if the DM says so. But if you were asking for opinions on the change, mark my vote in the "Bad idea" column.
 

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