Surprise!

[GX.Sigma]

I think our definitions of "surprise" need to be standardized.

Consider the following scenarios, and what kind of "surprise" they are:

Scenario 1: A hidden assassin backstabs a totally unaware target.
The target can't possibly act before the assassin, because he doesn't even know that the assassin is there until the knife enters him.

Scenario 2: A small group of kobolds drops down into melee range of an unaware party and attacks.
Since the kobolds reveal themselves before they act, the PCs can act first if they are quick enough.

The "surprise round" system works best for something like #1 , but isn't perfect for #2 . But what about the following scenarios:

Scenario 3: A fighter kicks in the door and finds 40 unaware kobolds.

Scenario 4: The party peeks around the corner and sees an unaware mob of zombies. On the count of three, they charge around the corner into combat.

Scenario 5: As the party is walking through the dungeon, the guy in front walks into a gelatinous cube.

Scenario 6: A wizard/rogue is having a pleasant conversation with a charmed NPC. Suddenly, the rogue plunges his knife into the NPC. The rogue's player wants to know if it counts as a sneak attack.

 

[DerekSTheRed]

There already was a difference in the two, when drawing a weapon takes an action.

So why not penalize the surprised instead of rewarding the surprisers? If a character is surprised the Use an Item action costs movement.

 

[FireLance]

Why not let the character gaining surprise choose to either:

1. Take an action before everyone else, then roll initiative normally. Good for spellcasters and other ranged attackers who don't need to get close to their targets; or

2. Roll initiative with a +20 bonus, then get a full round's worth of actions. Allows melee attackers a good chance to get the drop on their targets.

 

[DerekSTheRed]

Why not let the character gaining surprise choose to either:

1. Take an action before everyone else, then roll initiative normally. Good for spellcasters and other ranged attackers who don't need to get close to their targets; or

2. Roll initiative with a +20 bonus, then get a full round's worth of actions. Allows melee attackers a good chance to get the drop on their targets.

Again, punish those who are surprised and don't reward those who are doing the surprising. That way you only have to have one rule instead of two.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't really like the surprise round, I've always found it a tad clunky myself.

I would prefer surprise confers the initiative bonus as well as some useful combat bonus (advantage on attacks, greater crits, or just more damage straight up).

 

[Greensnakedrex]

I am a big fan of devastating surprise. When players surprise enemies, it is usually the result of players who are immersed, using their character's abilities, and thinking hard. Rewarding this type of play tickles my DM bone. On the other hand, surprise can be a powerful tool for DMs. Through surprise you can teach players a lesson for not paying enough attention, advance nefarious plots, or scare the crap out of complacent players. You can always fudge a roll if the surprise is going too nastily for the players while keeping the payoff of added tension.
In my experience, the players can rarely carry out a surprise attack without DM complicity, making it a very easy aspect of combat to control. This can be a great tool for pacing an adventure. I often have encounters planned that advance the story, but are not meant to be mortal threats to the party. Allowing for devastating surprise can speed up the resolution of these encounters while making your players feel powerful.
On the other hand, DMs never really have to grant surprise unless we really want to. I have 'made' many a perception check against PC's who are working so hard for surprise, and reveled in their dashed hopes as they start the 'boss' combat with the rogue pinned against the wall, the spell casters out of range, and the meleeists over one round of movement away.
If the power of surprise is ameliorated, it's value to DMs decreases. For this reason, I am not a fan of surprise just being +20 to initiative. I am not completely sold on any specific mechanic to adjudicate surprise as of yet, but I do think think that surprise should be VALUABLE and sought out when ever possible, and dreaded when wielded against you.

 

[Obryn]

Well, my very favorite surprise rules resemble the ones Green Ronin came up with for their Black Company Campaign Setting. More or less, surprise damage went straight to Constitution. I don't like ability score damage, but I love the thought behind it. And that thought is, "being unable to defend yourself really hurts." It makes ambushes extremely beneficial, and even allows for characters - no matter how high level - to get taken down in one shot.

However, I don't think that's a great rule for generalized D&D. I prefer it when surprise only happens via planning or lack thereof, and I want it to be a big advantage. The 3e/4e rules are fine for this, IMO.

I don't like the +20 thing because it makes other stuff tricky.

-O

 

[Li Shenron]

Either way I'm fine. If I had to choose perhaps the middle ground, I liked how the 5e playtest rules handled it (but still unsure what would be better between a +20 bonus or -20 penalty).

Two whole rounds worth of actions are too much, or at least they were in 3ed, and in fact we settled to always treat the surprise round as a partial-action only round.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I think our definitions of "surprise" need to be standardized.

Consider the following scenarios, and what kind of "surprise" they are:

Scenario 1: A hidden assassin backstabs a totally unaware target.

Scenario 2: A small group of kobolds drops down into melee range of an unaware party and attacks.

Scenario 3: A fighter kicks in the door and finds 40 unaware kobolds.

Scenario 4: The party peeks around the corner and sees an unaware mob of zombies. On the count of three, they charge around the corner into combat.

Scenario 5: As the party is walking through the dungeon, the guy in front walks into a gelatinous cube.

Scenario 6: A wizard/rogue is having a pleasant conversation with a charmed NPC. Suddenly, the rogue plunges his knife into the NPC. The rogue's player wants to know if it counts as a sneak attack.

Great questions, I'll have a go!

1. I think that the assassin getting an instant kill should be a function of the class/ability, whatever assassin ends up as. So long as the assassin attacks an unaware opponent, they get to use this super power.

2. They should definitely act first and get some benefit for the party being unaware.

3. Not sure - sounds like both parties are unaware to me.

4. They should act first, like the kobolds, and get a benefit for doing so.

5. Poor gelatinous cube. This should probably be handled by the cube's description, so it acts as a trap, then everyone is aware, then combat begins. Or perhaps again, it goes first, gets advantage.

6. Assuming the Rogue stealthed or bluffed in some way to make the wizard/npc unaware, they get sneak attack.

I'm starting to resolve how I want surprise to work in my head. I don't want a bonus round/action, whatever it is, I want initiative to work slightly differently. As I said at the top, it's ordinal, so it only matters what your number is compared to others. Let's consider an absurdly complex scenario with four groups:

Innocent kobolds
Adventurers sneaking up on them
Further kobolds who have snuck up on the adventurers
Assassins who want to kill everything and take the macguffin

Going down the list, each group is unaware of every group below it (though perhaps the innocent kobolds know their friends are trying to help them, but they still don't know where they are or when they will act).

At the trigger of combat, whatever that is, each combatant rolls initiative and is ordered with it's own group. The assassin group then goes first, moving up the list. Any combatant gets advantage to do anything against an opponent unaware of it (ie: all groups above it). After a round of combat is complete, everyone who has acted is aware of each other and the initiative collapses to a single group, but keeping the same order as before (essentially advantage is lost, but you otherwise still 'go first' in the round).

If someone doesn't act, they can jump in later and be placed in a separate initiative group at the start of the round, gaining advantage on the main group. If for some ungodly reason there are four groups all sneaking up on each other in a crazy circle, then you'd need to let the trigger group go first, but advantage would still be passed around the circle so that the trigger group can be sneak attacked by the group acting last.

 

[delericho]

...still unsure what would be better between a +20 bonus or -20 penalty...

It's marginally quicker to add a bonus than subtract a penalty. Especially since a large penalty means the result is likely to itself be negative.

On the other hand, it's more intuitive to think of being surprised giving a penalty, rather than surprising giving a bonus.

On balance, I would go with the +20 bonus. YMMV, of course.