Warlocks: Goodbye Rogues, we hardly knew you

[Neonchameleon]

Not 100% to be fair. And they are still striker kings - especially the second rank thug with a whip. But:

The rogue gets to pick locks. The Warlock gets to walk through the wall.

The rogue gets to hide behind the curtain. The Warlock gets to create the curtain then hide behind it. Or just walk through the wall again.

The rogue gets to cause a distraction. The Warlock creates ten pints of oil from thin air, stands well back, and throws a match on it.

The rogue gets a minimum of 10 to bluff. The Warlock either gets advantage or can charm a whole room.

 

[CasvalRemDeikun]

I guess they couldn't resist invalidating the normies. Sorcerer eclipses the fighter eventually too.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

As they expand the class base for the playtest they're going to have to pay closer attention to role protection. Each class should be the best within its role, otherwise it doesn't deserve to be a class. New classes have to be distinct while not overmatching other classes.

Tradeoffs should be clear. I worry that the example sorcerer doesn't have sufficient tradeoffs to not be superior to the fighter.

 

[variant]

Can you say, 'over dramatic'?

 

[tlantl]

In some ways the sorcerer and the warlock seem to have turned the other classes into chumps. I think they have too much going for them. I still can't get my head around the problem but I distinctly feel that they went too far.

 

[variant]

I see issues with the sorcerer, but I fail to see an issue with the warlock.

 

[The Shadow]

In fairness, going ethereal for a round, as good as it is, doesn't replace being able to pick locks. Just try to get into a locked chest with Ethereal Stride. Or get the rest of the party through a locked door. (Of course, if the full list of invocations includes something like Knock, your criticism will be much more pointed.)

Visage of the Summer Court is more problematic thus far. It just seems too good compared to Charm Person and Suggestion, to say nothing of straight-up social skills. The suggested background of Charlatan, which grants training in several social skills, just makes it worse.

As for using Fabrication of the Weave to make oil, my reading is that you can only create one flask of oil. Ten flasks would be ten objects, while the text only mentions one.

 

[variant]

Visage of the Summer Court is more problematic thus far. It just seems too good compared to Charm Person and Suggestion, to say nothing of straight-up social skills. The suggested background of Charlatan, which grants training in several social skills, just makes it worse.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting the warlock do something better than another class.

 

[Obryn]

Has anyone playtested these classes to compare them, or is this armchair?

-O

 

[Neonchameleon]

In fairness, going ethereal for a round, as good as it is, doesn't replace being able to pick locks. Just try to get into a locked chest with Ethereal Stride. Or get the rest of the party through a locked door. (Of course, if the full list of invocations includes something like Knock, your criticism will be much more pointed.)

The way into a locked chest is simple. An axe or a lever. And try getting through a barred or bolted door with lockpicks...

Visage of the Summer Court is more problematic thus far. It just seems too good compared to Charm Person and Suggestion, to say nothing of straight-up social skills. The suggested background of Charlatan, which grants training in several social skills, just makes it worse.

Yup.

As for using Fabrication of the Weave to make oil, my reading is that you can only create one flask of oil. Ten flasks would be ten objects, while the text only mentions one.

What's wrong with getting a ten pint flask? Can't cost more than about 5 gold?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with letting the warlock do something better than another class.

Of course not. There is, however, something wrong with letting the warlock be a better thief than the thief.