Warlocks: Goodbye Rogues, we hardly knew you
- Thread starter Neonchameleon
- Start date
The irony is Rogue just fine, fighters need an extra die of cs and clerics need more uses of channel divinity, and wizards are getting traditions.
Actually they did mention,Clerics would be,getting some extra things in the next version,too so they could do thier job better. Maybe Channel Divinity renews during a short rest like a warlock favours?
The problem isn't,with the warlock and sorceror, its that clerics got nerfied mostly, fighter just need tweeking (an extra die), wizards thier traditions. Rogue rock still.
Oh and it was mentioned that Warlocks can,get advantage on charisma checks, well so can rogues, knacks remember? Not limited to Charisma,either, ability checks, attack rolls, skills, saves ect... So a rogue with say Bluff and Diplomacy skills with be able to take 10 on a Diplomacy or bluff check, use a knack to gain an advantage on the roll and have Charisma as a dump stat without penalizing the roll (still plus 3 thanks to skill mastery) and be able to do the same with other skills like knoweldge skills or slight of hand. If a Warlock dumps Charisma, advantage will be of limited use, he'll still suck at it. Rogues rock, especially when used well, I can think of several good builds, Melee Thug based (best for damage,,but,ally dependant), Stealth based thieves, Rogues with Archer specialty for examplr
The point about Baleful Utterance is a good one, it does have a draw back.
Honestly for a Warlock I'd go with Intelligence primary, dex secondary, with Venestra's second boon, which costs no favours only a reaction, you'll be the hardest guy to hit especially with the dualist specialty and both minor invocations.
Actually they did mention,Clerics would be,getting some extra things in the next version,too so they could do thier job better. Maybe Channel Divinity renews during a short rest like a warlock favours?
The problem isn't,with the warlock and sorceror, its that clerics got nerfied mostly, fighter just need tweeking (an extra die), wizards thier traditions. Rogue rock still.
Oh and it was mentioned that Warlocks can,get advantage on charisma checks, well so can rogues, knacks remember? Not limited to Charisma,either, ability checks, attack rolls, skills, saves ect... So a rogue with say Bluff and Diplomacy skills with be able to take 10 on a Diplomacy or bluff check, use a knack to gain an advantage on the roll and have Charisma as a dump stat without penalizing the roll (still plus 3 thanks to skill mastery) and be able to do the same with other skills like knoweldge skills or slight of hand. If a Warlock dumps Charisma, advantage will be of limited use, he'll still suck at it. Rogues rock, especially when used well, I can think of several good builds, Melee Thug based (best for damage,,but,ally dependant), Stealth based thieves, Rogues with Archer specialty for examplr
The point about Baleful Utterance is a good one, it does have a draw back.
Honestly for a Warlock I'd go with Intelligence primary, dex secondary, with Venestra's second boon, which costs no favours only a reaction, you'll be the hardest guy to hit especially with the dualist specialty and both minor invocations.
Dark Mistress
First Post
Jester David
Hero
This is why it's a playtest. All those complaints take 30 seconds to fix.
Finding out if it's power recharge mechanic works is the big issue. Finding out if the basic core mechanics of the class work and feel like a warlock is what matters right now.
Everything else is fine tuning for next year.
Finding out if it's power recharge mechanic works is the big issue. Finding out if the basic core mechanics of the class work and feel like a warlock is what matters right now.
Everything else is fine tuning for next year.
Neonchameleon
Legend
I know it's a playtest. All those problems shouldn't have made it out of the committee room. They speak to bad design. And you can not tell if a core mechanic works if what it is powering is obviously broken.
But it has lead me to propose that warlock creations are chemically inert. So rich merchants keep a small store of Aqua Regia on hand (read: Alchemist's Acid) just in case someone offers them gold and they don't trust them.
The Shadow
Hero
Or perhaps even better, warlock creations vanish when struck with cold iron.
Jester David
Hero
Five guys sitting around a table is never going to accurately determine how much a power or ability steps on the toes of a class.
On paper, going ethereal does seem like it steps on the rogue's ability to open locks. But in play when the warlock is the only one that can pass through the sealed door, the rogue seems pretty useful. When the party encounters a locked chest, the rogue seems pretty useful.
Plus, there's not enough room for every classs to be a unique butterfly with no overlap. The fighter is going to have some fighty overlap with the paladin and ranger (to say nothing of the war domain cleric). So having a potential stealth overlap between the rogue and the warlock is not inherently egregious.
And, in case you hadn't noticesd, playtests tend to start with extremes. Look at the high hp and frequent occurrence of Advantage/Disadvantage in the first playtest. And the low hp now. They're testing the limits to see how far they can go and where the comfortable middle is. That is NOT something that can be done with a committee of five or ten or twenty or even a hundred.
Warlocks should be dark and shadowy and have elements of the rogue. The question is how far can they toe into rogue territory without devaluing the rogue.
Elements of the playtest are not meant to be perfect and are purposely imperfect to gauge how they work and feel. Because if it was "close enough" it would be ignored and people would focus on minutia.
Furthermore, no single power of a class is a core mechanic. A core mechanic is something like initiative or surprise or advantage or hitting. Testing if saving throws and contests work as intended is a thousand times more important than any one power, or even all the powers in a single class. You can remove a power, you can errata a power, you can even ban a class. But if you effed-up how initiative works the game is in trouble.
Even just for classes, powers aren't that important. Again, it is a 5-minute fix at the most. Because they're independent and separate; you can change a power without having to change anything else in the game.
What we should be testing for the warlock - what its actual core mechanics are - is the pact boons/ favours mechanic.
Does that work? Does it function mechanically or is it too confusing and unwieldy. Do warlocks gain enough powers or too many? Should pact boons and lesser invocations be separate or does tying them to the same recharge work. Is two favours enough or should there be more? Should they be tied to level? That's the basics.
That's what needs to be tested.
