Two Suggestions (HP and Attack Bonuses)

[Chris_Nightwing]

I have two suggestions that I think will help the game hit that sweet spot in deadliness, and also clean up something I can see already being a problem.

Base Hitpoints

The previous playtest used Con score + max HD for initial HP, followed by rolled HD slightly modified by Con for each additional level. The current version uses Con mod + max HD for initial HP, followed by Con mod + rolled HD for each additional level.

The former is quite deadly - it is easy to have a Wizard with just 4HP who will go down in one hit. It does differentiate the classes, however. The latter was a bit soft, it's hard to kill a Wizard with 14HP, and it didn't differentiate the classes very much at low level.

So my solution is adjust our thinking a little bit. Every character has a race, and a background tells you about their life before they became an adventurer, so before you become a Wizard do you have just Con mod HP? Clearly not, that doesn't work. Con score, yes, but that is high and too dominant at low levels. So how about we assign each character a default number of HP? Let's say, 6HP:

• A first level character gets 6 + Con mod + rolled HD (or average) HP.
• Each level thereafter a character gets rolled HD (no Con mod, that makes it overshadow HD again, and besides it goes into healing).
• Example - a starting Wizard with 11 Con gets 6+1d4 or 8 HP. Enough to take a hit!
• Example - a starting Fighter with 14 Con gets 6+1d10+2 or 13 HP. Enough to take two hits!
• Con makes a difference, but not too much, and HD remain important.

Now, if you like you can adjust this base number for the different races. Throw dwarves a +1, Elves a -1. Default commoners of these races would have 6/5/4 HP, Dwarf, Human, Elf. Heck, do the same for the lowest level monsters - default goblins get 3, nothing more until they become an archer, or shaman.


Base Attack Modifiers

3E had variable progression in base attack bonuses which led to large disparities.
4E had fixed progression with some starting differences.
5E has so far aimed somewhere in between - there are differences at 1st level, and some variable progression from what we've seen.

I think that they need to recommit to their aim of flattened math. Currently it looks like the Fighter is getting +1 with weapons every 4 levels, the Rogue +1 every 5 levels, the Cleric, who knows. This will lead to a maximum disparity of maybe 3 between a 20th level Fighter and 20th level Cleric (not accounting for abilities). Between 1st and 20th level the Fighter will go from +ability+3 to +ability+2 or 3 from ability increase+8+magic, which is about +1 every 2 levels. Hey, it's a reduction from 4E and 3E, but to me, they could go flatter. I say ability increase and magic should be the only ways to improve. At least make improvement regular between classes.

But either way, the intial differences could be fixed up a bit. For starters, I see that even Wizards get +2 with weapons, yet the Fighter gets nothing with magic, despite being able to get spells through various means. I suggest:

• Every class gets a magic attack bonus.
• At 1st level you basically divide +4 between weapons and magic
• Example: Fighter gets +1 Magic +3 Weapons
• Example: Wizard gets +3 Magic +1 Weapons
• Example: Cleric gets +2/+2
• Example: Rogue gets +2/+2 for some use magic device goodness.

Let me know what you think, especially with regards to attack bonus advancement - regular or irregular or no thank you?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like your HP idea. Sounds about right to me. I would however like the con bonus added as a minimum which you can´t roll under. I liked that rule, even though different hd need a constant added to the minimum.

The attack bonus thing is ok in general, but the fighter bonus should go up. As mentioned, bounded accuracy just does not take an advancement as granted. So it would be perfectly fine, if the cleric attack bonus and magic bonus never increases, while the fighter and the wizard are constantly improving. I am not sure if the rogue needs to improve however. In his case I would argue, that his sneak attack damage and stats increases should let him advance well enough.

So, over the course of 20 levels, AC and DCs should not go up in general, but a few points here and there is ok. However if at any time, any class improves, you should deduct that much from every class...

Or maybe a little improvement is fun... lets see how it plays.

 

[Mengu]

• A first level character gets 6 + Con mod + rolled HD (or average) HP.
• Each level thereafter a character gets rolled HD (no Con mod, that makes it overshadow HD again, and besides it goes into healing).

Yeah, this is basically scaled down 4e. Based on role/class, you get a base HP, you changed +Con to +Con mod, and you changed the fixed HP/level to rolled or average HP/Level. I think it would work fine, for the heroic tier, but I'd like to see a cap, after which characters maybe only get an equal and fixed amount of HP, like say after level 10, you only get 2 HP/level, regardless of class. Otherwise, the disparity becomes too big at level 20. If the dwarf fighter is getting 4 more HP than the elf wizard, that'll be a 76 HP difference, way too much I think. Capping it at level 10, would make the difference 36 HP, which is significant, but the gap would remain steady level 11-20, and HP inflation would remain minimal, since there would be only a 20 HP difference between level 10 and 20.

For attack bonuses, as far as I'm concerned, they can divorce it from stats, classes, and magic items. Levels might have a minimal effect, say +1 every 4-5 levels or so, and I'd be happy with that.

 

[Transformer]

If Con mod didn't apply to hit points at every level, I would dump Con, no question. Sure, I'd be slightly more vulnerable to poisons, and worse at a handful of Con-keyed tasks, but it would be the obvious dump stat. The 2 or 3 hit points would be negligible beyond level 2. Heck, I'd just be a dwarf who dumps Con, then I don't even have to worry about poisons!

I like the flatness of the to-hit math where it is. The to-hit scaling is just barely enough for you to feel like your character is really getting better at hitting things as he levels. That's right where I want it. Anything flatter and I'd feel like the progress was so glacial as to be basically meaningless.

So I guess I disagree. On the plus side, you're right that every class should get at least a minimal bonus to magic attack.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

If Con mod didn't apply to hit points at every level, I would dump Con, no question. Sure, I'd be slightly more vulnerable to poisons, and worse at a handful of Con-keyed tasks, but it would be the obvious dump stat. The 2 or 3 hit points would be negligible beyond level 2. Heck, I'd just be a dwarf who dumps Con, then I don't even have to worry about poisons!

I like the flatness of the to-hit math where it is. The to-hit scaling is just barely enough for you to feel like your character is really getting better at hitting things as he levels. That's right where I want it. Anything flatter and I'd feel like the progress was so glacial as to be basically meaningless.

So I guess I disagree. On the plus side, you're right that every class should get at least a minimal bonus to magic attack.

Con mod applies to your spending of HD during the day though, not to mention disease and endurance type checks, even if you are immune to poison. It's never going to be a dump stat even if your Con mod only applies once.

I don't think I'd mind some progress over 20 levels, but.. I think it ought to be the same progress for all, differentiated early.

 

[Transformer]

Con mod applies to your spending of HD during the day though, not to mention disease and endurance type checks, even if you are immune to poison. It's never going to be a dump stat even if your Con mod only applies once.

I don't think I'd mind some progress over 20 levels, but.. I think it ought to be the same progress for all, differentiated early.

Disease and fatigue/endurance saves are an extremely niche thing, in my experience. I can't recall ever hearing of a DM who just said "the plague is going around, so you'll be making a lot of saves against disease." Likewise, fatigue and endurance come up pretty rarely. Maybe two or three times in a campaign you seriously have to hold your breath for a long time or march across the kingdom quickly, and in the latter case the DM will often calibrate the situation to the characters' abilities anyway (i.e., as long as you go as fast as possible you arrive just in time to face the villain, etc.). I guess they might come up from the occasional monster attack, but eh, not a tenth as often as a Dex or Wis save.

I admit Con to spending hit dice is a better argument, but I can't see myself caring much about that either until they fix the Healer specialty. Maximum HD healing is plenty, no Con mod needed.