D&D 4E What 5E needs to learn from 4E

[Shadeydm]

This past weeks gaming session reminded me of the one thing that 4E does better than any previous edition IME the boss fight.

This past week our 11th level party fought an aspect of Dagon (a watered down version) and the battle hit all the right notes. The feeling of an overwhelming threat, Dagon's ability to hold his own against the combined might of a full D&D party a nice long battle without mooks, everything you want in a boss fight. I haven't seen any other edition execute such a fight as well as 4E not AD&D not 3.x none of them.

The tough part is as well as 4E serves up the boss fight it can't seem to avoid squeezing every fight into same mold needlessly. Its what makes me laugh when I see AD&D bashing on here with people calling it a jumbled mismatched hodgepodge of rules. What those rules did better than the editions that followed was provide a light, fast running, smooth play experience.

I saw a poster mention reciently that in the time span of two 4E combats they were able to run a dozen encounters using some sort of pathfinder beginner box. That is the kind of speed and smoothness that 5E needs unfortunately I am reminded that we also need 4E's ability to model boss fights. How to achieve both will be the million dollar question.

Put me down for a 4E boss fight module if such a thing is possible!

 

[ForeverSlayer]

This past weeks gaming session reminded me of the one thing that 4E does better than any previous edition IME the boss fight.

This past week our 11th level party fought an aspect of Dagon (a watered down version) and the battle hit all the right notes. The feeling of an overwhelming threat, Dagon's ability to hold his own against the combined might of a full D&D party a nice long battle without mooks, everything you want in a boss fight. I haven't seen any other edition execute such a fight as well as 4E not AD&D not 3.x none of them.

The tough part is as well as 4E serves up the boss fight it can't seem to avoid squeezing every fight into same mold needlessly. Its what makes me laugh when I see AD&D bashing on here with people calling it a jumbled mismatched hodgepodge of rules. What those rules did better than the editions that followed was provide a light, fast running, smooth play experience.

I saw a poster mention reciently that in the time span of two 4E combats they were able to run a dozen encounters using some sort of pathfinder beginner box. That is the kind of speed and smoothness that 5E needs unfortunately I am reminded that we also need 4E's ability to model boss fights. How to achieve both will be the million dollar question.

Put me down for a 4E boss fight module if such a thing is possible!

I agree to have it as an option but I don't want the whole game built around that. Boss fights are actually a playstyle because I have ran lots of games that didn't involve a boss.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

With that reasoning, I'd prefer that Mother May I style play, Vancian magic, and the game being balanced around resource attrition be optional.

 

[Shadeydm]

I agree to have it as an option but I don't want the whole game built around that. Boss fights are actually a playstyle because I have ran lots of games that didn't involve a boss.

Certainly I am not suggesting everyone needs to run boss fights like this or that every battle needs to be a boss fight. This is the dichotomy of 4E it does this sort of fight so very well sadly it wants to turn every fight into a boss fight (while a valid style for some, Its not what i want) and there is the problem.

Its like 4E does all combat in bullet time and I really only want bullet time fights in very specific situations (like boss fights).

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Certainly I am not suggesting everyone needs to run boss fights like this or that every battle needs to be a boss fight. This is the dichotomy of 4E it does this sort of fight so very well sadly it wants to turn every fight into a boss fight (while a valid style for some, Its not what i want) and there is the problem.

Its like 4E does all combat in bullet time and I really only want bullet time fights in very specific situations (like boss fights).

Wouldn't let me XP you but agreed!

 

[Jester David]

All my 4e boss fights ended up going on half an hour after everyone stopped caring or typically involved everyone dropping Dailies and stunlocking my monster into a stupor for the majority of the battle.

I figured out ways around that, mostly pulling ideas from Warcraft dungeon boss fights (multi-phases, immunities, adds, zones, etc) but those are largely independent of the edition.

 

[slobo777]

All my 4e boss fights ended up going on half an hour after everyone stopped caring or typically involved everyone dropping Dailies and stunlocking my monster into a stupor for the majority of the battle.

I figured out ways around that, mostly pulling ideas from Warcraft dungeon boss fights (multi-phases, immunities, adds, zones, etc) but those are largely independent of the edition.

The 4E writers also spotted this from earlier published material, and improved on solo monster design over the years. The first monster manual has some bore-fest solo monsters that need adjusting.

 

[the Jester]

Wouldn't let me XP you but agreed!

Covered for ya!

The 4E writers also spotted this from earlier published material, and improved on solo monster design over the years. The first monster manual has some bore-fest solo monsters that need adjusting.

True dat! Very little in 4e improved over time as much as solo design. MM solos are mostly crappy; by the time you get to Dark Sun solos, they are awesome.

 

[RangerWickett]

Solos in early 4e were a little boring -- they need at least as many tricks as 3 standard monsters.

But the real problem is PC powers. Conditions get too powerful when used on a solo. Which is why I hope HP thresholds will fix this. "If the target has 30 or fewer HP, it is stunned (save ends). Otherwise, it is slowed and grants advantage to attacks (save ends)."

 

[SLOTHmaster]

Not being a 4e player I'm curious; what about 4e boss fights makes them exciting? Last I heard (before reading this thread), they were considered a slog.