Combat Superiority and Damage/HP bloat

[dkyle]

Given that HP scales linearly with level, damage should too, at a similar rate. It's the only way to avoid HP bloat, and progressively longer and longer combats, at high level. Well, either that, or abandon scaling HP with level, which is a good approach, but one that wouldn't feel like D&D.

Every class should have significant damage scaling with level. I could see turning CS into a sort of "base damage bonus" that all characters get, with smaller class-based bonuses layered on top. But if Fighters don't get CS all to themselves, they'll need something else instead.

 

[Libramarian]

Given that HP scales linearly with level, damage should too, at a similar rate.

No. This impulse must be resisted. Variety is good. Texture is good. High level fights should feel different from low level fights.

 

[slobster]

No. This impulse must be resisted. Variety is good. Texture is good. High level fights should feel different from low level fights.

You don't want high level fights to turn into boring slogs, though. IMO the point of hp scaling is so that you can scale damage as well. Then you get a sense of accomplishment when you go back and those bugbears that were a real threat at first level fall like wheat before a scythe.

You still can, and almost certainly will, have high level fights that feel different from low level ones. That comes about because of more options; you may kill an average tough mook in two hits at first level, and in two hits at high level as well. But at high levels the enemies are more likely to have exotic defenses, meaning that you have to outsmart or outmaneuver those to put them down. You will also have more disruptive abilities; at low levels your options boil down essentially to "whack it till it dies to death". At high levels you might be able to cast a death spell at it, or trick it into running off a cliff with illusions, or strike the very earth beneath it and open up a yawning chasm.

I support high levels feeling substantially different than low ones, but I don't want it to boil down to "low levels are fast paced and tense", and "high levels are long slogs through tons of hp".

 

[dkyle]

No. This impulse must be resisted. Variety is good. Texture is good. High level fights should feel different from low level fights.

There are lots of other (and much better) ways that high level fights can feel different from low level fights than by simply having larger bags of HP to slog through.

Even if a 20th level Fighter fells an Ancient Dragon in the same number of attacks as a 1st level Fighter against a Kobold, there's going to be a lot of other differences. And a big element of "feel" would be the 20th level Fighter slicing through Ogres like butter, that at 1st level represented a major solo fight against the whole party.

 

[Kunimatyu]

It really seems like there's a portion of the fanbase that does not want the Fighter to have any unique toys at all. Very strange.

 

[slobo777]

I'd prefer classes that don't hold core mechanics, but do hold tricks and tweaks for them. So the fighter might share its CS dice with other classes, but will have some unique and powerful ways of using them. Perhaps the CS dice also scale best for the Fighter . . .

I'd like some generic mechanics tied to the concept of "power source", not class. That is much more amenable to homebrew classes. I'd also like to see power sources split more in line with 2E and 3E class descriptions, so e.g. Paladins and Rangers are mixed and get a little bit of martial resource (i.e. CS dice) and a little bit of divine or primal resource (Vancian spell slots).

 

[slobster]

I'd prefer classes that don't hold core mechanics, but do hold tricks and tweaks for them. So the fighter might share its CS dice with other classes, but will have some unique and powerful ways of using them. Perhaps the CS dice also scale best for the Fighter . . .

I'd like some generic mechanics tied to the concept of "power source", not class. That is much more amenable to homebrew classes. I'd also like to see power sources split more in line with 2E and 3E class descriptions, so e.g. Paladins and Rangers are mixed and get a little bit of martial resource (i.e. CS dice) and a little bit of divine or primal resource (Vancian spell slots).

I don't consider CS to be a core mechanic, though. Advantage/Disadvantage is a core mechanic, because it applies to everyone. Vancian spellcasting is not a core mechanic, because the vast majority of classes completely ignore it.

Some people are arguing that CS should be a core mechanic, but so far it isn't.

So CS is a class-specific mechanic. I think every class should have class-specific mechanics, to make playing it a distinct experience. As much as possible I'd like to avoid classes that are direct, lazy hybrids of preexisting ones, like a ranger that is simply a fighter with smaller CS dice and a few spell-slots. I'd rather the designers took the opportunity afforded by each new class they make to explore new design space and give us a chance to play something wholly different.

 

[Tovec]

There are lots of other (and much better) ways that high level fights can feel different from low level fights than by simply having larger bags of HP to slog through.

Even if a 20th level Fighter fells an Ancient Dragon in the same number of attacks as a 1st level Fighter against a Kobold, there's going to be a lot of other differences. And a big element of "feel" would be the 20th level Fighter slicing through Ogres like butter, that at 1st level represented a major solo fight against the whole party.

Part of me doesn't necessarily want ogres to be cut through like butter, even at 20th. Part of me doesn't want dragons to be equivalent to kobolds at 20th. But mostly this becomes a problem with ogres or kobolds are also scaled to be challenges at 20th so that they ARE still problems. If 20th level enemies are basically the same big bags of HP as level 1 enemies are for level 1 players then I do see the point that was being made.

Flatter math is fine, but along with it we have to make sure the HP scaling makes sense too. There are so many more options that can and should exist beyond simply upping everyone's HPs to signify new levels.

 

[Umbran]

What I don't agree with is a hyperbolic damage progression.

Yes, well, calling the increase from CS "hyperbolic" seem to be to be, well, hyperbolic. It is *some* extra damage, but let us keep in in perspective.

Every class should have significant damage scaling with level.

Other classes can achieve it in different ways - spellcasters can have it baked into their spells, for example. Some of the other martial classes may get varieties of Expertise dice, but perhaps useful for other things. But some other martial classes can have that damage baked in to other powers.

I don't mind sharing a few mechanics around, if they work smoothly, but if you share all mechanics around to everyone, then there's no unique play experience for any class.

Let the fighter have its shtick. Let others have their own shticks.

 

[dkyle]

Flatter math is fine, but along with it we have to make sure the HP scaling makes sense too. There are so many more options that can and should exist beyond simply upping everyone's HPs to signify new levels.

I wouldn't mind it if Next abandoned automatically scaling HP with level, but I doubt the devs would be willing to do that, since it's a pretty big "feel of D&D" thing.

Other classes can achieve it in different ways - spellcasters can have it baked into their spells, for example. Some of the other martial classes may get varieties of Expertise dice, but perhaps useful for other things. But some other martial classes can have that damage baked in to other powers.

Well, yes. That's all I meant. Not that all classes need CS, but that all classes need damage scaling of some sort.

Ultimately, every class should be able to achieve, with minimal system mastery required, damage scaling in step with HP scaling.