D&D 4E [Continuation 4e] - a manifesto

[Shadeydm]

Option: Quick Combat Resolution

Sometimes a fight should be an epic set-piece. And sometimes it should be fast, bloody, and over in a few minutes, game time. 4e does spectacularly well at the first, but completely botches the second. My proposal therefore is that for quick combat resolution, damage is measured in healing surges (which are now more important), and you do only 1-3 surges worth of damage per attack (most monsters having 4 surges to start). 4 surges of damage puts you down but not out, and anyone may call for the battlemap at the start of their turn or their side’s turn. I’ll expand if anyone’s interested. But we’ve made surges matter earlier by limiting extended rests.

I wonder if something like 3 hit minions might bear some fruit. I've seen normal minions suggested as a fix but i've never found them to be particular satisfying beyond the opportunity they present to the controller to kill lots of stuff at once. If minions had more staying power they might bridge the gap no?

 

[Xethreau]

What we have going down thus far is it looks like all classes have unique techniques, but may choose from a shared pool of techniques for which they qualify, such as one based on their power source.

I plan on using that as the core mechanic of certain classes, in fact; the bard, who dabbles in all, gains few unique techniques but can draw on the shared pool of any power source.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I wonder if something like 3 hit minions might bear some fruit. I've seen normal minions suggested as a fix but i've never found them to be particular satisfying beyond the opportunity they present to the controller to kill lots of stuff at once. If minions had more staying power they might bridge the gap no?

2 hits with a damage threshold (so a striker can bring them down in one) I find works better - or minions with some sort of death protection.

 

[D'karr]

2 hits with a damage threshold (so a striker can bring them down in one) I find works better - or minions with some sort of death protection.

I've regularly used 2 hit "dinions". First hit bloodied, second hit kill.

Minions are one of those mechanics I've slaughtered many times. I love using them and I hardly ever use them as written.

 

[Xethreau]

Greetings all! With the combat chapter complete and ready for revision, it means that the rest of the game can be written.

Please feel free to contribute in any way shape or form. Write, edit, or critique either here or in the document! Even simple encouragement is nice!

 

[Shadeydm]

minions and faster combat

As a player i never cared for them. If i were playing a controller and a wipe out a bunch with a single spell i could see how that might be satisfying. Playing a defender and using an encounter or even worse a daily to kill a minion is not satisfying imho. I've seen the rogue cringe over that one too many times to think its a good thing. Perhaps the key would be to not let on that the party is fighting minions but that sounds much easier on paper than it is in play.

 

[Xethreau]

That, or let on that they are minions right from the start. Maybe a DC 15 wisdom check could do the trick to say "these guys are weak/inexperienced, and a solid hit should take them down." That way, there is no expectation damage.

 

[GreyICE]

As a player i never cared for them. If i were playing a controller and a wipe out a bunch with a single spell i could see how that might be satisfying. Playing a defender and using an encounter or even worse a daily to kill a minion is not satisfying imho. I've seen the rogue cringe over that one too many times to think its a good thing. Perhaps the key would be to not let on that the party is fighting minions but that sounds much easier on paper than it is in play.

The system is flexible enough that if you don't like them, you don't have to use them.

Personally, I love em, I just never pretend they're anything other than minions. I mean I don't call out "these are minions" but when I describe the shambling horde of zombies moving at the party while two who are "larger, and seem to be moving with more of a purpose" are in the background the party gets the picture. And they would in character too. You don't use your best spells and techniques on the shambling horde, you save em for the big boys, or the necromancer who is responsible for the mess. You use em on the giant zombie Ogre who is charging you.

It adds a lot of 'you against the world' feeling that was often hard to capture in earlier editions.

 

[Shadeydm]

The system is flexible enough that if you don't like them, you don't have to use them.

Personally, I love em, I just never pretend they're anything other than minions. I mean I don't call out "these are minions" but when I describe the shambling horde of zombies moving at the party while two who are "larger, and seem to be moving with more of a purpose" are in the background the party gets the picture. And they would in character too. You don't use your best spells and techniques on the shambling horde, you save em for the big boys, or the necromancer who is responsible for the mess. You use em on the giant zombie Ogre who is charging you.

It adds a lot of 'you against the world' feeling that was often hard to capture in earlier editions.

I recognize that they could simply be left out the question is how could they be altered to potentially be a satisfying part of the solution in speeding up non "boss" fights in 4.x. I didn't post in here to bash 4E elements come on people!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think the "auto-damage = auto-kill" is a bit.. too easy.
The key thing for a Minion is that they need to be easy to handle, which is why I like the 1 hit point mechanic for them, and I would avoid encounter or reacharge powers for them (since it forces you to track each minion seperately). Ideally, I just need to write down "n minions" somewhere and can mark off when one is dead. I'd also prefer to avoid any conditions on them, but that isn't always possible.

But they may be a bit too easy to kill, so here's my idea:
A minion has a damge threshold. If you deal at least 5 damage per tier to it, it immediately dies. If not, roll a save. If it fails, it is still dead.

---

Regarding short and extended rests and milestones.

1. I am okay with extended rests becoming more difficult to make, or at least making this a clearly identifieable "dial" with alternate rules suggestions.
2. I would simply milestones to that each encounter (and any achieved quest goal is a milestone?). Each milestone grants you an action point and one recovery option - you cannot stack recovery options, you never have more then one. (Exception may be when an encounter allows you to also complete a quest?).
3. To compensate the effect of 1, during a short rest, you can use a recovery for one of the following effects:
   • Recover hit points equal to your healing surge value.
   • Spend 2 Action Points to recover one daily power. (Maybe the lowest level only, or first), during a short rest.
   • Spend 4 Action Points to recover 1/2 of your healing surges (rounded down) during a short rest. Only possible once per milestone
   This means you can always have 1/4 your hit points if you lived at all. And you have a chance to get dailies and healing surges back, but it costs you action points (which otherwise can be used to compensate the lack of dailies or surges.)