D&D 4E What 5E needs to learn from 4E

I don't object to the Essentials classes - my comment is about the product. It's poorly compiled, with ridiculously excessive, repetitive and sometimes incoherent favour text, and needless duplication of rules content.
Yeah, I found the format to be vastly inferior to the original PHB1 format. The material was padded out with considerable amounts of added flavor text, but it was rather bland and uninformative, almost filler, and 4e books typically ALREADY were pretty heavy on generic flavor text. The classes were mostly decent designs, but they added little to the game. The Mage added pretty much nothing, the e-martial classes create as many problems as they solve, and frankly only a couple of the other classes were even moderately innovative (the Hexblade was about the best, and it is fairly cool).

All the classes are playable and I'm sure they DO appeal to someone, but producing this material took most of WotC's D&D output for a whole year, with little to show for it. They could have easily produced a much better adventure path instead for instance (considering they did do a pretty decent job on the adventures in the Essentials stuff). The RC was a pretty handy book, but they could have done that on its own. MV is great too, but again it didn't require putting out all the other stuff.

Overall I think Essentials was just a big mistake. If 5e learns anything from that it is again to STICK TO YOUR FREAKING GUNS and just do it right the first time and have the guts to back it up. Rehashing existing material won't buy you much and the time is better spent innovating.
 

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Responding to an XP comment:

Tony Vargas said:
Still, it was such an improvement over the AD&D fighter

Oh, no arguments there! Everyone has access to all the nonmechanical options that potentially exist, so I'm glad to see an evolution of the ruleset where everyone also gets mechanical options.
 

Overall I think Essentials was just a big mistake. If 5e learns anything from that it is again to STICK TO YOUR FREAKING GUNS and just do it right the first time and have the guts to back it up. Rehashing existing material won't buy you much and the time is better spent innovating.
Didn't 3.5's success teach them the opposite lesson, though? And, really, with every rev-roll, the core books sell better than the prior rev's last supplements, so aren't we, as a collective customer base, telling them "forget new-stuff, we want the original books re-hashed again!"
 

I don't thing the 3x sales trend teaches anything like that. Its pure buyer population...
Everyone interested in playing with the 'new' rule set will by the Core books.
Some players will immediately stop, satisfied to avoid splat books and develop their own world.
Some will stick to a campaign setting {I bought almost all the Eberron material, including adventures} while shying away from others.
Some will grab every new rule but, others will be picky.
Everyone will look at new offering and ask 'is this of use to me?' Eventually there are more folks answering 'no' to that simply because they have all they want or need.

Then throw in the question of money on top of want and your buying population dwindles faster.

I think what WoTC needs 5e to be a sustainable framework from which they can add breadth to characters, worlds, and stories. The challenge is to do this while sustaining income with more of the game 'drawn in', so to speak. World building can only last so long, expanding character options runs afoul of bloat, expanding rules options leads to balance issues... and there will always be the players who say the base rules are enough to go on.

... which means really in order to continue being a viable RPG publisher they need to have a new edition in 5 to 7 years.... or develop an ongoing income stream better than the DDI that suffices to shore up what is lost by being an RPG publisher. {piracy, duplication, no royalties on use, etc..}

I do not wish to be in their shoes!
 

Responding to an XP comment:



Oh, no arguments there! Everyone has access to all the nonmechanical options that potentially exist, so I'm glad to see an evolution of the ruleset where everyone also gets mechanical options.

I'm not sure the 3.X fighter was. At least the 2e fighter did something well. There was no doubt which class would win in melee - or had the best saves. And due to stat rolls being the main resolution mechanic, the 2e fighter doesn't have the same out of combat incompetence issue.
 

I'm not sure the 3.X fighter was. At least the 2e fighter did something well. There was no doubt which class would win in melee - or had the best saves. And due to stat rolls being the main resolution mechanic, the 2e fighter doesn't have the same out of combat incompetence issue.


Subtle as a train-wreck, as usual.
 

I too am baffled every time I hear this. I've DMed all prior editions (and 8 years of 3.x) and none of them have provided the richness, coherent format and "ease of adjudication" within the stunt system...none of them have provided the dynamism of 4es terrain and hazard system and its entrenched tactical mobility.

- The large common room had 2 huge firepits (3 * 3 zone fire damage and ongoing - save ends) cut into the middle of the room.

- The vaulted ceiling housed a massive candelabra (5 * 5 blast - heavy damage, restrained - save ends and difficult terrain afterwards) supported by multiple chains...but on one main load-bearing truss (40 damage, DR 5).

- The hardwood floor was covered wall-to-wall in finely spun (flammable) area rugs. Oil lanterns adorned the walls and sat on endtables and roundtables throughout the large common room. Burning rugs (2 * 2 zone fire damage and ongoing - save ends) would spread in a 2 * 2 each round. The windows were open and the chamber was reasonably vented but when 20 squares are filled with fire, everyone at ground level has minor concealment.

- The room was littered with furniture and area rugs to be yanked. Large picture windows with heavy drapes adorned the walls.

Too assist with your bafflement, here's that room in 3e. (and much, much, simpler then all that 4e gobblygook I might add)

2 large firepits, 2d6 damage, reflex save DC15 or catch on fire. If on fire DC 15 reflex save and a move action to put out.

Large heavy object falling 10 ft. 1D8 damage. 2 or 3 D8's if its truly, absurdly massive. Affects a 5x5 or 10x10 square. Again depending on your massive-ity. After it falls difficult terrain. Double cost to move through or tumble DC 15 to move as normal.

Support strut. Unchanged by edition.

Large rugs burned in both editions. A burning rug would do 1d6 fire damage to everyone in the area, DC 15 reflex or catch fire. If you catch fire DC15 reflex and move action to put the fire out.

Fire spreads the same in either edition as thats simply DM fiat.

Characters have minor concealment (20% miss chance) when 20 squares are filled.


Your welcome :p ..... Although what was so difficult about that exactly remains a mystery to me.
 

Too assist with your bafflement, here's that room in 3e.

[Snip]

Your welcome :p ..... Although what was so difficult about that exactly remains a mystery to me.

You've just missed the point several times over. It's not the individual parts of the terrain that are difficult to stat - your stats are functionally equivalent to the 4e version and only look simpler to you because you're used to the jargon.

The difference is in the stunting. In how the terrain is used. In 3.X statting that room up is a largely wasted effort. In 4e it really isn't (although it is probably overkill).

Take the firepit. It's a large area that's on fire. It is highly unlikely that anyone is going to step into that firepit willingly. Why would they? It's a firepit. It's gonna hurt them. So the relevance of the firepit is determined by how easy it is to push someone in - otherwise it's just a square people aren't going to walk through.

In 3.X it's not worth bull rushing someone in - you have to give up your attack to do it and unless you have Improved Bull Rush they get a free swing. Especially as they are just going to take a 5' step out of the firepit next time. There are a few feats (e.g. Pathfinder's Shield Slam) and a few spells (e.g. Gust of Wind) that can help force people into the fire pit. But these are both very rare (and note that Gust of Wind won't even force small non-fliers in). You might as well place a rope round the area of a firepit and say "No one cross this" for all the game impact it's going to have most of the time.

In 4e on the other hand I'd estimate at least half of all PCs have some sort of forced movement. The sword and board fighter probably has Tide of Iron - an at will attack that allows them to attack and drive the enemy back five feet as well as make a decent attack. The wizard probably has Freezing Burst or Thunderwave as an At Will, both of which affect a 15 foot by 15 foot area and move anyone they hit (or possibly even Beguiling Strands). The archer ranger (Hunter) can not only easily slide people into the firepit, but can use another arrow to pin them there until the escape or knock them over. And these are just a small sample of At Will abilities. If the PCs play well, any monster who starts within ten feet of the firepit may go in. (The monsters can, of course, do this right back to the PCs). The firepit instantly becomes a defining feature of the battle rather than just something that's there.

Your chandelier falling is singularly pointless IMO. The person underneath it is going to get a reflex save (or is it really autohit?). And it does very little damage - 2d8 is only about comparable to a first level PC with a sword - meaning that fighter, rogue, and probably even the cleric are better off Just Hitting Soemthing. Which means that the candelabra is dropped by a wizard simply because he doesn't want to waste a spell and isn't good with weapons. Great incentive to stunt there.

The 4e chandelier on the other hand does a lot more damage becuase bringing down a chandelier should be the highlight of the night not something the wizard does because he's bored of making crossbow attacks. It uses the Limited Use table rather than an attempts to model it by physical impact, making it worthwhile for anyone rather than just the wizard. And because everyone knows it's worth it and can guess where the chandelier's going to hit, people are going to use forced movement to get people under the chandelier, making for even more of an epic crash.

For both those reasons, and for more (such as the full round attacks in 3.X as against standard attacks and increased movement on certain actions in addition to your normal move) stunting works much, much better in 4e than 3.X. You have the incentives to stunt, you have the ability to set people up for stunts, and you have the mobility.

Oh, and being pedantic, a candelabra is not a chandelier. A candelabra should probably do about 1d3 damage as a one handed improvised weapon. Maybe as much as 1d6 for a very big one.
 
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Oh, and being pedantic, a candelabra is not a chandelier. A candelabra should probably do about 1d3 damage as a one handed improvised weapon. Maybe as much as 1d6 for a very big one.

Pfffft. More like a d12, high critical. If I've learned anything from Clue, it's to never underestimate the power of a candelabra. ;)

Edit: Damn my French-version of that boardgame; it's candlestick, not candelabra. Still, a candelabra is like a dire candlestick, so my point stands.
 
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Hmmm...I had a post here clarifying things (meant chandelier and not candalabra) and detailing the the advantages of the 4e hazard/stunt system and limited-use terrain effects vs the 3.x analog; (i) ease of use, prep and adjudication and (ii) the effects being comparable, from an action economy standpoint, with PC's deployable resources such that the PCs are incentivized to leverage them in-play. It seems to have been deleted by the mods mistakingly when they deleted timASW's multiple posts.
 

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