Pathfinder 1E Duelists and CMD

[Starfox]

The Duelist - Pathfinder_OGC gains the Canny Defense ability that adds to her dexterity bonus when calculating armor class.

When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Would this add to her CMD (Pathfinder_OGC)?

Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifiers

Special Size Modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows:

Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.

Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers.

Miscellaneous Modifiers
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

By comparison, a monk adds her armor class bonus to CMD. And in my judgement, the Dodge feat adds to CMD, as it is a Dodge bonus.

 

[dmfubar]

Since the ability specifically says " a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus" (bold face mine), and the CMD is computed adding in the Dex bonus, then yes, it would add to the CMD. The Intelligence bonus is adding to the Dex Modifier directly, not as a separate mod to the CMD. At least that is how I read it.

 

[paradox42]

Would this add to her CMD (Pathfinder_OGC)?

Certainly it would. The Duelist ability explicitly says it is adding to the DEX bonus to AC; therefore, it changes the DEX bonus to AC and adds to everything that that does. The Duelist is, for example, clearly not allowed to add that bonus when he or she is flat-footed; the ability itself notes this. The fact that it does not also discuss CMD is not a barrier- everything that the DEX bonus to AC is figured in to, also gets the Canny Defense.

EDIT: Bah, Ninja'd!

 

[dmfubar]

Woohoo! I is ninja!!!!

 

[Starfox]

Not the reply I expected. The wording "adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class" had me thinking this would be a modifier to AC, and to AC only. But I think I'll bow to your unanimous opinion here - that you posed the same thing at the same time only strengthens your point. The lack of further objections kind of makes it unanimous - if someone else here at ENworld had objected strongly, I think they would have posted by now - "Those who are silent agree" is an idiom in Sweden.

Thanks.

 

[KiloGex]

Just to make it non-unanimous here, I'm going to say that it doesn't effect your CMD. The ability specifically states "her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class" which lets me know that it does not effect things like CMD or saving throws.

 

[Crothian]

It specifically says to AC so I also say no to CMD. If you think it would add to CMD, then it would also add to initiative, reflex saves, dex based skills, ranged attacks, etc. And that seems way too much.

 

[SteelDraco]

I think it should add to the duelist's CMD. It should count as a 'miscellaneous modifier', per...

Miscellaneous Modifiers

A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

If all those bonus types apply, then the duelist's canny defense bonus certainly should. I'd probably categorize it closest to a dodge bonus, but insight wouldn't be a bad approximation either. Dodge fits best because it stacks with everything, though, and the circumstances in which you lose it are the same.

 

[Starfox]

I think it should add to the duelist's CMD. It should count as a 'miscellaneous modifier'.

After thinking it over, I am of this opinion as well. CMD is a bit of a paste-on still, and all other rules have not been retrofitted to include it. So (most) anything that modifies armor class, but is not armor, affects CMD.

 

[concerro]

It is added to CMD. Any bonus that adds to AC is added to CMD except for armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. SKR also said, within the last 24 hours, that the ability is badly written, and that it works independently of the dex bonus. In short it is not a bonus to your dex bonus, despite the RAW. It is a bonus to your AC. There will be an FAQ on the website next week to explain it.

Link to SKR saying it works independently of the dex bonus and it is its own bonus to AC.

How it's supposed to work is the duelist* adds her Int bonus to her AC (not to her Dex bonus to AC), and she loses that Int-based AC bonus under any situation where she's denied her Dex bonus to AC. Therefore, her Int-based bonus to AC ignores the max Dex limitation of armor because the Int-based bonus to AC is not a Dex bonus.