Pathfinder 1E Sense motive became lie detector

[slobo777]

The PC should be effectively Columbo in any murder-mystery . They have an inherent feel for who did it, but still need to get the bad guy to reveal their hand, so they can deal with them in front of witnesses.

Introduce complications for bare-faced accusations against high-ranking NPCs. These heroes are relative nobodies, what exactly are they doing accusing the nobility, when everyone knows they should be not wasting important peoples time, and be checking the bandits in the swamp for clues . . .

Like any murder mystery, have plenty of misguided and dodgy characters around who seem suspicious, but aren't necessarily evil or connected with the main plot. The classic "No I wasn't there, but I can't give an alibi (because actually I was there, but was poaching from the king, plus I heard something but daren't say)". These people should trigger that something is up on a sense motive.

Don't ping true/false "lie" for high sense motive results when the ability is used directly. Most people expect a direct approach and will mentally prepare a good lie/alibi. Instead give out "he seems distracted", "you sense she is concealing something" or "the question shocks them" or "you've just made them really angry/sad".

Give out better sense motive results when the skill is used in conjunction with subtler approaches than direct questioning, such as following someone and watching what they do, who they talk to - who are their true friends amongst the courtiers, do they share a secret with the shop-keeper etc, etc.

In general, make it clear that the skill is useful, but it is only one part of a good detective's toolkit. The character, or other party members, need to apply other skills and approaches to fully out a criminal.

 

[N'raac]

Ok so I dm a level 1 game where one player is an oracle. He took the nature revelation that gives him an oversight bonus of +10 on any one skill during the day. He also took the feat that allows him to use that ability 2 times/day.

Now, he only uses that ability on sense motive rolls, so at level 1 he has something like +16 on sense motive and he can uses it on most NPCs.

How would you deal with high sense motive characters without ruining the plot and the fun challenge of deceptive NPCs, but without making a player feel bad about his character's high sense motive skills.

I had a similar problem once with a player that had +20 on all knowledge skills.

I assume this is

Natural Divination (Ex): You can read the entrails of a freshly killed animal or humanoid to gain an insight bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on one saving throw. Alternatively, by observing and interpreting the flights of birds, you may apply a +10 competence bonus on any one skill check. Finally, by charting marks in dirt or stone, or observing the behavior of sand when thrown into the wind, you gain a +4 insight bonus on one initiative check. These bonuses must be used during the next 24 hours and you must declare you are using the bonus before the check or save is made. Making a natural divination takes 10 minutes. You may use natural divination (in any combination) once per day plus one additional time per day for every four oracle levels you have attained.

He requires 10 minutes to set it up - no big deal. But he can also use this only twice a day - two Sense Motive checks. Make sure you're asking the right people the right questions. The required '20' for a hunch (which still misses on a 1 - 3, but not for long) could reveal the questioned target is lying because he killed the king, because he has info he has not revealed regarding the murder or trying to mislead the characters for completely different reasons (eg. evidence that would point to him as the murderer is on his person, but he didn't do it).

Giving everyone high Bluff skills or otherwise neutering the character seems completely unfair to me. Better to just ban the revelation outright than effectively remove the character's very focused ability. He's spent considerable character resources to get a huge bonus on a couple of skill rolls a day.

Rather, I would say ensure he does get good use of the ability to advance the plot. Not resolve everything, but certainly advance the plot and allow the group to accomplish something otherwise highly unlikely to impossible.

 

[Ferghis]

... so at level 1 he has something like +16 on sense motive and he can uses it on most NPCs.

I would never give a player a flat out yes or no on whether a character is lying. Depending on the roll, the skill would yield information such as (in no particular order):
- definitely withholding something
- seems nervous about his mother-in-law
- doesn't like snakes
- has daddy issues
- might have multiple personality disorder
- hates you guys
- wants to be king
- wants to have a drink
- seems like he has a lot to lose
- keeps playing with a ring
- seems concerned about the time

In other words, details about his personality and motivations; not absolute facts about his behavior. The kind of information that a good psychotherapist might spot early in a session. Not the kind of information a video surveillance camera would confirm about his whereabouts.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

I wouldn't hamstring the player at all. Just because the player knows the truth doesn't mean they'll be in a position to do anything about it. Villains that you know are guilty but are untouchable are perfect recurring villains that you love to hate. You know the crime boss had the magistrate killed? So what? It'll take a lot more effort to take him down than knowing the truth. And in the meanwhile he'll be gloating and holding it over your player's head while he walks around a free man.

 

[Kinak]

I think it's important to give the player who invests in a specific skill something for their effort. So, yeah, they can tell what people are feeling most of the time (unless that person is equally crazy good at bluffing).

Use it as a tool to move your game forward. Okay, the king's adviser said "I had nothing to do with the king's death!" and you know he's lying. How was he involved? Do you try to find actual evidence or just attack the king's adviser? How does he and his co-conspirators respond to people poking around?

The oracle has given you a great set of plot hooks. Use them to help move the party through adventures and introduce them to the world. Reward the player's choice to help you out (because they did) by letting them shine.

And later in the game when you come out with "You can't get a good read on this guy" you get to enjoy the uncomfortable shudders as they realize they're dealing with someone crazy, dangerous, or both

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[billd91]

Use it as a tool to move your game forward. Okay, the king's adviser said "I had nothing to do with the king's death!" and you know he's lying. How was he involved? Do you try to find actual evidence or just attack the king's adviser? How does he and his co-conspirators respond to people poking around?

And is he lying about his involvement because he was a conspirator? Or because he got wind of the conspiracy and is ashamed he didn't act quickly or forcefully enough to save the king? Because his incompetence left the king vulnerable and he wants to cover that up lest he also lose his head?

 

[Crothian]

I love characters with a high sense motive. There is a big difference between between knowing who killed the king and being able to prove that. So, the PCs are questioning the duke and they ask him if he killed the king and the Duke says no. I as DM roll sense motive for all the players in this situation and then I write on a note to each player what their character believes. Four of the five players get notes saying he's telling the truth and one thinks he is lying. What does this prove? Nothing. But it does get the PCs suspicious of the Duke and since they don't make the rolls they have no way of knowing if the one PC made a great roll or bad one to get that different information.

 

[jrowland]

Problem arises when the player says : "Are you the one who killed the king ?" ["I use sense motive with my +10 oversight bonus"]

I can't really answer that with something else than yes or no:
"I did not kill the king and I ate chicken today." [You sense only half is true] xD

But then the pc can do that with every major NPCs and the plot twists possibilities are reduced..

The NPC could say " Off!"...they don't have to talk. The NPC could dissemble (google it): "Are you the one who killed the king?", response: "Why would I kill the king?"

The NPC could tell the truth, "Yes. My blade plunged into the kings heart. He told me to" because the king said sarcastically, "You are here to kill me? I'd like to see you try".

The trick is to allow the player to feel he gets utility out of what appears to be an "I win" button. Let them win, but draw them into a deeper mystery. I'd be sparing with the pathological liar and gullible dupe trick. Rather, make sensing motive a two-edged sword: Even "good guys" can't hide their surface emotions. Kind ol' Helga at the inn says sweet things like "here you go deary", but she really despises the PCs presence. Loyal henchmen think of you as a "pointy-haired" idiot boss...etc. And Prince So-and-So, hiring the PC to avenge his father, thinks of them as useful pawns...easily disposable.

Good luck.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I wouldn't nerf the PC - and, I would set up special situations where he/she could shine.

However, there are plenty of options to prevent the PC from becoming a never fail auto-lie-detector. Can the PC get the accused alone? I mean, you can't go into an open court and ask Duke Dunderhead if he killed the king. If the Duke knows the PC is good at detecting lies, then the Duke could take countermeasures as well. ("You accuse me of murder - well, let me introduce you to my little friend, Ser Robert Strong - he'll show you what he thinks of your accusations.")

 

[mattcolville]

Ok so I dm a level 1 game where one player is an oracle. He took the nature revelation that gives him an oversight bonus of +10 on any one skill during the day. He also took the feat that allows him to use that ability 2 times/day.

Now, he only uses that ability on sense motive rolls, so at level 1 he has something like +16 on sense motive and he can uses it on most NPCs.

How would you deal with high sense motive characters without ruining the plot and the fun challenge of deceptive NPCs, but without making a player feel bad about his character's high sense motive skills.

I had a similar problem once with a player that had +20 on all knowledge skills.

I'd probably need some examples of when it's been a problem, but I can see how it could be.

Generally, if the player has busted his butt to come up with a cool shtick, I feel like it's my job to let him do it. So, he wants to be a Bene Gesserit Truthsayer at 1st level? That's cool. And it's only twice a day.

If I felt like it was a problem, I'd put challenges in front of the player that can't be solved by Sense Motive.

And I'd also deploy NPCs who know only what they've been told and have no idea they're deceiving the players.