D&D 5E (2014) Lightning Bolt, Web, and Sleep

[ren1999]

O.k. We've figured out how a web spell will work. That isn't so bad.

But the Sleep spell.. was the saving throw versus spell DC forgotten?

 

[ren1999]

complications created by spells like you are doing. If I am correct in assuming you have an issue with these spells, may I ask what your suggestions are?

Sleep would be an enchantment/charm/control like spell that forces someone to do something they would otherwise not do. This is going to have to require a spell DC versus ? wisdom save?

Every enemy that views the wizard should be affected? Or just make every enemy roll a save or fall asleep.

Of course, the enemy will wake up either by taking an automatic hit and regularly rolled damage, or being slapped or shaken by an ally. The spell will then be negated at that time but lasts for as long as it takes till those conditions are met.

I want to take this time to once again promote the idea of enchantment spells hierarchy.

sleep is the least powerful, the worst that can happen is that an enemy can take damage once

hold person could be more powerful because if the enemy doesn't save, the enemy is subject to being auto hit again.

charm person is even more useful because the enemy could be made to attack other enemies, each attack could be subject to a save roll or the spell is broken

summon person is the most powerful because you can get a new henchman that way that will help you throughout the campaign.

Now change 'person' to 'being' and we've got a very effective set of enchantments.

 

[mcintma]

O.k. We've figured out how a web spell will work. That isn't so bad.

But the Sleep spell.. was the saving throw versus spell DC forgotten?

Don't think so. It's a pretty weak spell affecting avg 13HP ... + as mentioned you lose any overage so even less in real use. If it had a save too then it would be - why bother? Just spam magic missile, you get your auto 10HP avg and creature is dead, not merely unconscious.

I think they need to spice up sleep, also not a fan of HP-limit spells. I actually like most of the D&DN spells though, they're nerfed in power but at least most of them have that 'fun and open-ended' feeling back. Yeah, I realize that's subjective

 

[Dandu]

All of you will be goofing off in the break room and then a 5th level wizard is going to come along and zap you with a lightning bolt.

I knew that chorus lines would be my downfall.

 

[the Jester]

Sleep would be an enchantment/charm/control like spell that forces someone to do something they would otherwise not do. This is going to have to require a spell DC versus ? wisdom save?

If sleep's real weakness is its hp limit- and I think we can all agree that it is- then I don't think you need a save. I like the idea of different spells being balanced in different ways.

That said, I think the hp threshold mechanic still needs some work.

I want to take this time to once again promote the idea of enchantment spells hierarchy.

sleep is the least powerful, the worst that can happen is that an enemy can take damage once

Uhh, I think you're forgetting coup de grace: you spend an action and reduce an unconscious creature to 0 hp. If it's already at 0, it dies. Sleep is FAR from the least powerful effect enchantments can produce, IMHO.

I like the idea of a wide range of enchantment effects- charmed, asleep, fumbling (disadvantage on attacks and Str & Dex checks), enraged, unobservant, etc. I hope we see a lot of this kind of thing.

hold person could be more powerful because if the enemy doesn't save, the enemy is subject to being auto hit again.

charm person is even more useful because the enemy could be made to attack other enemies, each attack could be subject to a save roll or the spell is broken

Charm person doesn't do that as is, and I love having a minor "Be my buddy" type spell available for lvl 1 casters.

Hold person traditionally does clock in at 2nd - 3rd, so yeah, I'm ok with that one being more powerful. (Note that you cannot cdg a held creature; the key word in the playtest document's description of cdg is "unconscious").

summon person is the most powerful because you can get a new henchman that way that will help you throughout the campaign.

OTOH I don't see summons as being enchantments at all.

A permanent charm, though?

Now change 'person' to 'being' and we've got a very effective set of enchantments.

It's a start, but like I said, I want breadth, not just depth. I want dire charm, Leomund's lamentable belabourment, geas, hope, fear, discord- all those and more.

 

[kerleth]

I have to respectfully disagree with your evaluation of sleep Ren. Not counting coup-de-grace, if you sleep an enemy in the middle of a fight (assuming they don't get woken up by the noise of fighting) another enemy has to waste a turn waking them up. And if they can't you take out all the other baddies and then team up on the remaining snorer. Or take him prisoner and interrogate him. Honestly though, I don't think of sleep as a combat spell. It is an "avoid combat" spell in my book. Knock out the two guards and sneak into the fortress. No bruises, no sign that they did anything but get lazy at their post. Being pursued by a group of goblins? Put the vanguard to sleep buying you time to slip away before the main force gets there. From my experience in gaming and associated fiction sleep is generally used as a "mook zapper". In that case an hp/hd/level limit of some sort is better than a will save. It's not for knocking out the minotaur so you can coup-de-grace him, it's for sneaking past guards. Making it a will save means it won't be as reliable for what (I feel anyways) it is intended for, while allowing it to muck up "boss fight" style encounters. I will agree that the current version needs work though.

This leads into my next point, which is that I don't think all the spells so easily fit into a heirarchy. Some spells are different, not necessarily more powerful. Trying to shoehorn all of them into a ladder would then require tweaks to each of them to make sure they are explicitly better or worse than other spells, and next thing you know it all becomes very samey.

Also, as another poster pointed out, charm person and dominate person are different things. Charm person does not turn an enemy into an ally for the remainder of a fight. It's uses are a bit more nuanced.

 

[ren1999]

Don't think so. It's a pretty weak spell affecting avg 13HP ... + as mentioned you lose any overage so even less in real use. If it had a save too then it would be - why bother? Just spam magic missile, you get your auto 10HP avg and creature is dead, not merely unconscious.

I think they need to spice up sleep, also not a fan of HP-limit spells. I actually like most of the D&DN spells though, they're nerfed in power but at least most of them have that 'fun and open-ended' feeling back. Yeah, I realize that's subjective

You make a good point. Some of these spells are designed with other poorly designed spells in mind. Hit point limit spells aren't play testing well.

 

[ren1999]

It's a start, but like I said, I want breadth, not just depth. I want dire charm, Leomund's lamentable belabourment, geas, hope, fear, discord- all those and more.

I missed your comments on those spells. Can you collect them and describe them here? I want to include some of those on my list.

 

[ren1999]

hp/hd/level limit of some sort is better than a will save. It's not for knocking out the minotaur so you can coup-de-grace him, it's for sneaking past .

Sleep is certainly useful for avoiding combat. I am aware of the coup-de-grace action but my campaign decided to change that from 0 hit points to maximum damage and then to just a regular damage roll. Why? Because when monsters do it to the characters -- people end up hating the DM. Then I've got anarchy.

 

[kerleth]

So you are so used to playing with your house rules that you forgot to mention them? That happens a lot. You are forgiven, THIS TIME. Still, in reference to your "heirarchy" idea I mentioned more than just coup-de-grace. Taking a person out of a fight and teaming up on them when they come back and all the other enemies are defeated is still more powerful than "take damage once". Also, what are peoples thoughts on the will save vs hp/hd/level limit in reference to sleep as a "mook zapper". Do other people agree that the spell should be designed towards those uses and not as finat fantasy style sleep spell?