D&D 5E Are we back to Feat taxes?

Wow, lots and lots of misunderstandings going on in this thread...

Actually... KidSnide's interpretation of 'feat tax' is actually closer to its original meaning that the taxadermists used in mid 4E. Feats that are so good in comparison to other options that they become mandatory because you look like a dink for not choosing otherwise. Now yes... some of these feats were introduced to help with the number balancing... but it wasn't fixing balance that made people go nutso over them. It was that the feats were just too good.
See, this goes back to the original debate over feat taxes. The term was invented to describe feats that aren't just too good, but feats that are all but required to meet baseline expectations. To use 3.x as an example, Natural Spell and Weapon Finesse are both obvious choices for players of appropriate PCs. But only one is a feat tax, while the other is just plain overpowered.

Worrying about 5e feat taxes now may be pessimistic, arguably even premature -- but I don't think that Manbearcat is reading tea leaves either. WotC has an established history of fixing baseline imbalances with feat taxes, and if I were concerned about 5e's quality, I'd be worried about feat taxes too.

You mean like in 1st and 2nd edition where you just pretended one fighter was different from another?
I could be mistaken, but I don't think that's what Ferratus is talking about. I think he means that no basic fighting style should be better than another right out of the gate. AKA, before a player even gets to choose those options that make his fighter different from any other fighter.
 

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See, this goes back to the original debate over feat taxes. The term was invented to describe feats that aren't just too good, but feats that are all but required to meet baseline expectations. To use 3.x as an example, Natural Spell and Weapon Finesse are both obvious choices for players of appropriate PCs. But only one is a feat tax, while the other is just plain overpowered.

And I seem to remember it the other way.

Everyone knew the numbers were slightly off (as Manbearcat mentioned) even before Weapon Expertise was introduced. At Level 30, PCs were behind a bit from "perfect number balance". It was an accepted part of the game that at some point, probably late in 4E's development, something got changed or removed and then another number balancing pass didn't occur. But most people though didn't care, probably because most weren't playing Epic Tier where the off-balance was really noticeable, others just easily compensated by a slight decrease in monster power, and the few that did care made their own adjustments to handle the situation.

But when it was first rumored that Weapon Expertise as a feat was going to be appearing... the furor wasn't that players were going to take the feat because they had to fix the math, but they were going to take the feat because it was a better choice over pretty much all others. It was our egos that were being taxed... because the min-maxer buried in all of us saw that there was no better decision to make, unless we wanted to look foolish or we had designs on caring more about the "roleplaying" than we did the "numbers".

That's what the whole argument was about.

People got told here on the boards that if you didn't like the Expertise feats... you just didn't have to use them. The game would still work fine without them. But that wasn't the point in their eyes. The point was that they now had to take them specifically BECAUSE they existed. And that "tax" wasn't because of some worry about the math being off... but because they couldn't stand the though of leaving such a worthwhile feat off the table. Their egos wouldn't allow them to do it.

And the kicker to the whole thing was that the identity of the "feat tax" was just one more bullet in the chamber of those people who desired to keep shooting and shooting 4E for being a bad game and WotC for being a bad company. It was another clarion call to those who wanted to stomp over those involved.

So by bringing up the boogie-man of "Feat Tax" into the 5E discussion, it's rubbing salt into a wound that still festers for a lot of people. One where we'd like to have scab over with a new edition. So I just ask that we worry about and deal with 5E on its own terms, and not on the terms of a previous edition's sore spots. "Feat taxes" don't exist until they actually do. That's my hope, anyway.
 



I'm not interested in rehashing a three year-old debate about a problem that I don't even have anymore, thanks to the Complete 4th edition...

And the kicker to the whole thing was that the identity of the "feat tax" was just one more bullet in the chamber of those people who desired to keep shooting and shooting 4E for being a bad game and WotC for being a bad company. It was another clarion call to those who wanted to stomp over those involved.
So I'll take your word for this, even if I don't remember any 4e haters knowing or caring enough about game balance to use feat taxes as edition war ammo. What I remember is some of us 4e fans recognizing Expertise and Improved Defenses as feat taxes and lamenting, as frankthedm says, that WotC chose to fix the math holes with 'optional' feats rather than errata. And I remember other 4e fans being either unable or unwilling to recognize the difference between a feat tax and a plain ol' overpowered feat. (And a few math-balance-blind fans saying that those feats were 'just another option.')

If you feel you have to present a united front against 4e haters by denying or redefining the existance of feat taxes, I'm not going to tell you that there's nobody left to fight. But don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone who recognizes feat taxes as a problem are using the term as part of some vendetta against 4e. 4e has really spoiled me for other editions, despite its few flaws; so much so that I have essentially zero interest in 5e.

So by bringing up the boogie-man of "Feat Tax" into the 5E discussion, it's rubbing salt into a wound that still festers for a lot of people. One where we'd like to have scab over with a new edition. So I just ask that we worry about and deal with 5E on its own terms, and not on the terms of a previous edition's sore spots. "Feat taxes" don't exist until they actually do. That's my hope, anyway.
Well hoping is one way to deal with bad possibilities...but like I said, if I were concerned about 5e's quality the possibility of feat taxes would certainly cross my mind.
 

The etymology of "feat taxes" aside, I think [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s core point is a good one: right now, TWF and single-weapon fighting are less powerful than sword-and-shield or large-weapon fighting. Those latter styles can be "fixed" with feats, but this leads to other problems and violates what I'd consider a prime game-design directive: don't use character resources to plug design holes.

So the obvious first question is: how big IS the difference between these styles? I think MBC is pretty spot-on for the most part, but I'd point out one important consideration: the single-weapon style, while currently weak for fighters, has other benefits for spellcasters (who need a free hand to cast), and is already built into the weapon and shield proficiencies of most other classes (e.g. rogues can't use shields or large weapons and have a high Dex).

The next question: SHOULD there be a difference in power balance between the different styles? For example, a lot of people seem to think that TWF should be an "expert" style that sucks for anyone who hasn't specially trained for it. I can imagine a similar argument that the single-weapon style should be inferior to other styles by default, because otherwise, what's the point of having shields in the game?

(These two points lead to another consideration: there's already a bit of a "class proficiency tax" embedded in the styles. Sword-and-board is only available to classes with shield proficiencies, and large-weapon fighting to classes with large-weapon proficiency. On the other hand, I think literally ANYONE can pick up a dagger and start stabbing people with it. Should this "proficiency tax" be taken into consideration when evaluating the power of various styles too?)

IMHO, TWF should be balanced against sword-and-board and large-weapon fighting... BUT this also means that it should require a certain degree of class proficiency as well. For example, if you need at least one "finesse" weapon to dual-wield, rogues and fighters could do so without any extra proficiency feats, but wizards and (most) clerics would need to spend a feat or something to gain finesse weapon proficiency first.

Single-weapon fighting, on the other hand, should be a bit more like unarmed fighting: if it's "balanced" with everything else by default, it's too powerful. Only specific classes and/or specific builds should be able to wield a single rapier with as much effectiveness as a barbarian wielding a greataxe. So I'm okay with the "duelist" path requiring specific maneuvers and/or feats to be fully effective. (And remember, you still get the side benefit of having a free hand to do stuff with, like swinging from chandeliers or casting spells.) Ideally, I'd like to see it have a small handful of specific maneuvers (maybe 2-3) and one or two feats at most.

I still think the Protector feats from the second playtest are a good goalpost here: specializing in a style shouldn't mean a few +x bonuses to get your math on par. The math should already be mostly on par. Specializing in a style should mean your actions are well-flavored to the intent of that style. Shield-users take more punishment and protect their allies; a guy with a greatsword can cleave through enemies with ease; and a duelist can keep his opponent on its toes better than anyone.
 

IMHO, TWF should be balanced against sword-and-board and large-weapon fighting... BUT this also means that it should require a certain degree of class proficiency as well. For example, if you need at least one "finesse" weapon to dual-wield, rogues and fighters could do so without any extra proficiency feats, but wizards and (most) clerics would need to spend a feat or something to gain finesse weapon proficiency first.

Single-weapon fighting, on the other hand, should be a bit more like unarmed fighting: if it's "balanced" with everything else by default, it's too powerful. Only specific classes and/or specific builds should be able to wield a single rapier with as much effectiveness as a barbarian wielding a greataxe. So I'm okay with the "duelist" path requiring specific maneuvers and/or feats to be fully effective. (And remember, you still get the side benefit of having a free hand to do stuff with, like swinging from chandeliers or casting spells.) Ideally, I'd like to see it have a small handful of specific maneuvers (maybe 2-3) and one or two feats at most.

I find myself agreeing with these general ideas. Sword and board, two handed weapons, and dual weapons are roughly equal but provide different benefits. They are all strictly superior to a single melee weapon, but require proficiencies that not every class gets.

Now, keep in mind, that if I take a specialty involving my single weapon, and another character takes a specialty involving two weapon fighting or sword and shield, I want those specialties to feel like an equal benefit.
 

Single-weapon fighting, on the other hand, should be a bit more like unarmed fighting: if it's "balanced" with everything else by default, it's too powerful. Only specific classes and/or specific builds should be able to wield a single rapier with as much effectiveness as a barbarian wielding a greataxe. So I'm okay with the "duelist" path requiring specific maneuvers and/or feats to be fully effective.

I'm with you on a decent bit of that there (specific builds should be able to wield a single rapier with the effectiveness of a barbarian wielding a greataxe) but in total, I think we diverge as I'm not ok with feat taxes in order to do it.

1- I don't want to cede the authority of gameplay to a process simulationist agenda that will ultimately result in narrowing the scope of martial builds to an optimal/viable few (see 2e's dual wielding katana ginsus)...over a dynamic, diverse narrative agenda that accounts for a wide swath of genres. Not interested in that at all. I want to see the Huns, the Macedonians, the Hoplites (out of phalanx formation), the Roman Legions, Achilles, Zorro, etc, etc represented in this game.

2- I don't believe that that process simulationist agenda actually bears out the truth of martial combat. I really, really, really don't want to get into the morphological disadvantages of the great weapon and its narrow applications but suffice to say that only two cultures used the weapon and only in an exceedingly narrow band (14th to 16th century). All other cultures' infantry used one-handed weapons, polearms or variations of formational fighting (spear hedges and shield walls, etc). The largest step-changes in infantry technology was not weaponry, but steel and plate armor.

3- Regardless, I want a wide, wide swath of fighting styles equally viable. That means you can't start a race, working off the same $ budget while down 1/4 horsepower. You spend some of your budget to get that 1/4 horsepower back and the guy next to you has stiffened his suspension and grip and now kills you in the corners. I want these three guys:

Originally posted by WotC 4e
Sly Flourish
You use a distracting flourish with your off hand to land a solid blow.
At-Will
bullet.gif
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement
: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier + Charisma modifier damage.

Riposte Strike
With a calculated strike, you leave your foe vulnerable to an adroit riposte if it dares to attack you.
At-Will
bullet.gif
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement
: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. If the target attacks you before the start of your next turn and it is within reach, you can make a Strength vs. AC attack against it as an immediate interrupt. On a hit, the target takes 1[W] + Strength modifier damage

Grappling Strike
You hew your foe with a simple attack and then grab it with your empty hand to keep it from escaping.
At-Will
bullet.gif
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee touch
Requirement
: You must have a hand free.
Target
:One creature
Attack
:Strength vs. AC
Hit
: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you grab the target. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn.
to be just as viable as these 3 guys

Originally posted by WotC 4e
Resolute Shield

As you slash into your foe, you pull your shield into a defensive position between the two of you, guaranteeing that it absorbs at least some of your enemy’s attack.
At-Will
bullet.gif
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement
: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you gain resist equal to your Constitution modifier against the target’s attacks until the end of your next turn.


Dual Strike
You lash out quickly and follow up faster, delivering two small wounds.
At-Will
bullet.gif
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement
: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Primary Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon)
Hit: 1[W] damage.
Effect: Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature other than the primary target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC (off-hand weapon)
Hit: 1[W] damage.

Devastating Strike
You strike with awesome power, more concerned with offensive strength than defensive posturing.
At-Will
bullet.gif
Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement
: You must be wielding a melee weapon in two hands.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + 1d8 + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: Until the start of your next turn, any attacker gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls against you. If you are raging, attackers do not gain this bonus.
(And remember, you still get the side benefit of having a free hand to do stuff with, like swinging from chandeliers or casting spells.) Ideally, I'd like to see it have a small handful of specific maneuvers (maybe 2-3) and one or two feats at most.


This is easily enough achieved in an AEDU system with a rich action economy. However, 5e possesses no such rich action economy. As is, things like swinging from chandeliers that actually provide legitimate modes of attack that are worth an Action (and not just practices in horrible adjudication of percentages and bad risk assessment, eg 3 rolls to accomplish one effect because that properly simulates all the step...and provides you...ooooh 15 % chance of success) such as:


Originally posted by WotC 4e
Acrobat's Blade Trick

You flip into a spinning acrobatic display of flashing blades. Then the display transforms into a deadly attack.
Encounter
bullet.gif
Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Prerequisite
: You must be trained in Acrobatics.
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: Each enemy in the burst you can see
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage
Effect: After the attack, you can shift a number of squares equal to the number of enemies you hit with this attack. During the shift, you can move through squares occupied by enemies you hit with this attack.
or your free hand having actual mechanical impact (such as in the 3 attacks above) are not in the mix of 5e. There is no p42 for limited damage expressions or balanced adjudication of action (not 3 checks for one mundane act with little to no chance at success). What's more, there is no actual hard-coded mechanical legitimacy to that claim. In the current iteration (sans tactical module), its just DM fiat (and one DM may not be as on board as the next) as mechanical resolution. One of the reasons for 4e's huge success with my group was legitimizing/making viable the play of a swashbuckler, flashing his blade, tumbling through enemies and cutting them down. Personally, I'm not interested in the DM fiat and without that hard-coded, built-in viability of those PC builds, I am certain that 2 of my PCs (therefore my group, as it is 3) will have no interest in this game.
 

I don't have a complete answer for how to achieve it, but ideally each fighting styles would be more distinct before feats (or other such limited options) are applied, and less distinct but still different afterwards. Happily, such a system fits most agendas equally well. :D

You have to think a little afield to make this work out, still preserve differences, and not get to obviously out of whack with particular expectations. For example, a big axe or sword is heavy, not something you can sneak into a castle, calls attention to itself, drops defense slightly because of no shield, etc. A 2H spear or other polearm has similar but slightly different issues.

You don't want to remove all of that, but it doesn't hurt for to eventually pick up a greatsword feat that gives +1 AC versus melee weapons. You can't sneak a spear into hostile territory without magic, but you can have an "interaction" feat that makes it socially acceptable for your character to carry his big spear just about anywhere.

Those kind of feats are nice to have for a character that really wants to work around a particular issue that conflicts with the weapon style they have chosen, but not so critical that everyone with that style will feel compelled to take them--and certainlly not every such feat.
 

I would rather see feats being used to diversify a characters abilities rather than specialize them. That way they would be better used to reflect character development. Rather than being used to just make you do what you are supposed to be doing better. Which is something that should be covered by class features anyway.

That way a fighter is better at fighting because they are a fighter, and not because they have the power attack feat.
 

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