Converting Epic Level Creatures

[Cleon]

I don't think it should be easy, but he shouldn't have blanket immunity, either.

Would you care to lay out a proposed draft.

You know I'll probably say "but I prefer my version", but it'll help me know what you're after.

First of all, the time stop business is a bit complex and somewhat vague since time stop doesn't work "against" anyone. I'd honestly be happiest dropping that.

It works against time, don't you know.

Then, as for the stuff in the first paragraph, how about we change the immunity to a bonus on saves? That would make it difficult to do anything to him.

IIRC, some of the spells that create those effects don't allow a saving throw, so giving it a bonus on saves wouldn't be much help.

e.g. dimensional lock and dimensional anchor are both No Save spells.

 

[freyar]

How about a bonus to SR against those spells, as well as to saves? I'm willing to negotiate on the time stop bit, too, but here's my take.

Beyond Time and Space (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei transcends spatial and temporal limitations. He is gains a +X bonus to saves and SR versus time-manipulation effects such as slow, temporal stasis, and magical aging; forcible movement into another dimension by dispel evil, imprisonment, maze or any similar effect; and dimensional anchor or dimensional lock.

He sees all adjacent dimensions clearly, including the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane and the interiors of extradimensional spaces such as a rope trick, maze or portable hole.

Ythog-Nthlei can attack incorporeal and out-of-phase targets without penalty and ignores the effects of blink or displacement powers.

Ythog-Nthlei can use time- or space-manipulation powers on himself if wishes (i.e. the beyond time and space ability does not prevent him using haste on himself).

 

[Cleon]

Would you care to lay out a proposed draft.

You know I'll probably say "but I prefer my version", but it'll help me know what you're after.

...but I prefer my version.

How about a bonus to SR against those spells, as well as to saves? I'm willing to negotiate on the time stop bit, too, but here's my take.

Beyond Time and Space (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei transcends spatial and temporal limitations. He is gains a +X bonus to saves and SR versus time-manipulation effects such as slow, temporal stasis, and magical aging; forcible movement into another dimension by dispel evil, imprisonment, maze or any similar effect; and dimensional anchor or dimensional lock.

He sees all adjacent dimensions clearly, including the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane and the interiors of extradimensional spaces such as a rope trick, maze or portable hole.

Ythog-Nthlei can attack incorporeal and out-of-phase targets without penalty and ignores the effects of blink or displacement powers.

Ythog-Nthlei can use time- or space-manipulation powers on himself if wishes (i.e. the beyond time and space ability does not prevent him using haste on himself).

My main concern is to make it impossible to permanently trap Ythog-Nthlei in temporal/spatial traps, which the above does not do. It merely makes is harder.

I'd like to keep the time stop bit too, 'cause its cool.

If you're after a compromise, I'd rather go for something like:

Beyond Time and Space (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei transcends spatial and temporal limitations. Any effect that would trap Ythog-Nthlei in time or space, such as temporal stasis, trap the soul, imprisonment, or a wish to banish him to another plane will only last for X days, after which Ythog-Nthlei reappears as if by greater teleport or plane shift.

Ythog-Nthlei can attack incorporeal and out-of-phase targets without penalty and ignores the effects of blink or displacement powers. He sees all adjacent dimensions clearly, including the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane and the interiors of extradimensional spaces such as a rope trick, maze or portable hole.

Finally, if any creature uses time stop within X feet of Ythog-Nthlei he can attempt to interrupt the time stop as a free action. If Ythog-Nthlei succeeds at a Will save against the DC of the time stop, he can choose to have the time stop fail or actually enter the time stop with the other creature. If Ythog-Nthlei and another creature share a time stop they can target each other attacks or spells as if they were both in normal time, but creatures outside the time stop are invulnerable to their attacks and spells.

This ability does not hinder Ythog-Nthlei using time- or space-manipulation powers on himself.
​

How about that?

 

[freyar]

Since he is already permanently trapped in the module (assuming no one on the outside blunders along and lets him out), it shouldn't be impossible to trap him permanently. It should be harder but not impossible.

Tell you what: I'll give you the time stop stuff if you give me the ability to imprison him in some way.

 

[Cleon]

Since he is already permanently trapped in the module (assuming no one on the outside blunders along and lets him out), it shouldn't be impossible to trap him permanently. It should be harder but not impossible.

Tell you what: I'll give you the time stop stuff if you give me the ability to imprison him in some way.

I think he should be asleep, not trapped. The barrier's there to stop others waking him up.

 

[freyar]

Did you read the quote from the module that I copied into post 588? There's nothing about sleeping.

 

[Cleon]

Did you read the quote from the module that I copied into post 588? There's nothing about sleeping.

Hmm, I though I quoted the relevant bit of the module somewhere on this thread:

The chamber at the bottom of the stairs is the outer portion of the prison of King Ythog-Nthlei, who lies in an enchanted slumber beyond the sealed portal. If someone places his hands on the two glowing spots, a three-dimensional image of a human sorcerer will appear and speak the following:

 

[freyar]

And elsewhere, he's imprisoned. Sigh. Are we sure that "enchanted slumber" isn't some kind of metaphor, given that he's an ageless creature from the vast beyond? Why is it so important to give him a unique and extremely powerful SQ to be immune to any kind of imprisonment (but not sleep) anyway? I guess I just don't quite understand the need to make him more powerful than demon lords, etc.

 

[Cleon]

And elsewhere, he's imprisoned. Sigh. Are we sure that "enchanted slumber" isn't some kind of metaphor, given that he's an ageless creature from the vast beyond? Why is it so important to give him a unique and extremely powerful SQ to be immune to any kind of imprisonment (but not sleep) anyway? I guess I just don't quite understand the need to make him more powerful than demon lords, etc.

The two conditions are not mutually exclusive. He can be "imprisoned" behind a sealed portal and put in an enchanted slumber. If Ythog-Nthlei is vulnerable to binding/imprisonment, why would they bother making him sleep after imprisoning him?

 

[freyar]

I just see nothing in the original text that directly says he can't be imprisoned --- there's no reason that the word "imprisoned" in the adventure is somehow more metaphorical than the "slumber" is. And I also don't see anything that suggests he should have such a powerful ability. His father, maybe, but that's not who we're designing here.