Converting Epic Level Creatures

[Cleon]

Yeah, that's kind of my point. I would think Ythog-Nthlei should have great immunities but more on par with the "standard" avatar demon lords/archdevils as opposed to the divine versions. After all, he's on the Prime Material and has been sleeping for eons. It seems he'd be a bit weak. Let's give him the "Beyond" abilities as well as immunity to energy drain. And that should probably be it.

You're forgetting that an ancient council of mages spent hundreds of years trying to destroy him. That suggest that at the very least he's immune to transformation, ability drain attacks, energy drain and other permanently incapacitating effects.

Hmm, I suppose it could be that permanently incapacitating effects like petrification, being ability drained to Wisdom 0, permanent paralysis/domination/psychic churergy and so forth just trigger his Beyond Life ability, so he "pops back" after a while. If that's the case, we just need to give the Beyond Life ability a tweak as well as giving him immunity to energy drain and ability drain.

 

[freyar]

I'd much prefer that Beyond Life be the explanation for the difficulty getting rid of him. I don't think he should be so much beyond a typical demon lord avatar, especially after being stuck in captivity for so long. After all, the PCs need to have some way to get rid of him!

 

[Cleon]

I'd much prefer that Beyond Life be the explanation for the difficulty getting rid of him. I don't think he should be so much beyond a typical demon lord avatar, especially after being stuck in captivity for so long. After all, the PCs need to have some way to get rid of him!

How does that differ from the "give the Beyond Life ability a tweak" solution I suggested? If we have Ythog-Nthlei remain incapacitated/dead for a few decades or a century or so, it'll match the flavour and the result will be the same from the PCs viewpoint - unless they come back a generation or two later to discover the Dark King's Been Reborn!

 

[freyar]

I'm actually agreeing with you. I just don't want him to be actually immune to so much stuff. Tweak away.

 

[Cleon]

I'm actually agreeing with you. I just don't want him to be actually immune to so much stuff. Tweak away.

So if you're agreeing with me why are we arguing?

How about this for a tweak to the Ythog-Nthlei Working Draft?:

Beyond Death (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei can not be killed. If brought to -10 hit points, his body melts away, leaving nothing but an unspeakable stain, but Ythog-Nthlei will reappear at some later time or on some other plane without suffering any penalties for having died. He reappears even if his body and spirit are annihilated. The time-delay and distance of Ythog-Nthlei's reappearance after death is at the DM's discretion, but are usually considerable (e.g. 1001 years later on the spot he died, or immediately on the lowermost layer of the Abyss).

Any effect that permanently incapacitates Ythog-Nthlei or renders him helpless for more than a month (petrification, being ability drained to Wisdom 0 or Dexterity 0, long-term paralysis, polymorphing into a non-combative form, et cetera) is considered to have "killed" him and triggers his rebirth. Note that sleep effects do not trigger Beyond Death.​

Then we can trim down the immunities to, say:

Immunities: Ythog-Nthlei is immune to disease, poison, energy drain, cold damage and mind-affecting effects. His Beyond Nature and Beyond Time and Space abilities (see above) give him special immunity to effects that affect dimensional travel or manipulate time and space.​

That OK?

 

[freyar]

I didn't think we were arguing.

Beyond Death looks good, but the immunities still seem like maybe too much. How about we drop immunity to poison? I also think we need to drop immunity to mind-affecting, since the non-poison sleep effects I see in the SRD (sleep and symbol of sleep) are also mind-affecting. Hey, aside from his great saves, would sepia snake sigil work on him? I'm still honestly finding Beyond Time and Space to be a bit too powerful given that he was trapped.

 

[Cleon]

I didn't think we were arguing.

It only takes one to argue.

Beyond Death looks good, but the immunities still seem like maybe too much. How about we drop immunity to poison? I also think we need to drop immunity to mind-affecting, since the non-poison sleep effects I see in the SRD (sleep and symbol of sleep) are also mind-affecting. Hey, aside from his great saves, would sepia snake sigil work on him? I'm still honestly finding Beyond Time and Space to be a bit too powerful given that he was trapped.

I'm OK cutting immunity to poison, but would rather keep the mind-affecting. The Dark King wouldn't seem much of an ineffable horror if a mage can dominate him and make him act as his busboy.

I'd rather make him immune to mind-affecting powers apart from sleep.

 

[freyar]

Hmm, that's extremely fussy. I doubt many mages will get past his saves. I mean, even the FC1 Demogorgon doesn't have immunity to mind-affecting; how would you like to make him your busboy? But I'll tell you what I'd rather do. How about we give him immunity to mind-affecting and prune Beyond Time and Space quite a bit? I honestly think some kind of imprisonment thematically fits what we're talking about. After all, the direct quote is

“We have at last imprisoned the Dark King, Ythog-Nthlei, here beneath his very base. The process cost more than we could have believed in time and lives. For over 200 years our brotherhood of magicians has struggled to prevent these sons of the old ones from releasing their horrible sires. Now only a few of us remain, but the task is complete. This image is a warning. Do not, under any circumstances, attempt to enter the chamber beyond this door. Any transgression into the area will release the King from his bondage, and will surely spell your doom.”

It pretty clearly says that he's been imprisoned.

 

[Cleon]

Hmm, that's extremely fussy. I doubt many mages will get past his saves. I mean, even the FC1 Demogorgon doesn't have immunity to mind-affecting; how would you like to make him your busboy? But I'll tell you what I'd rather do. How about we give him immunity to mind-affecting and prune Beyond Time and Space quite a bit? I honestly think some kind of imprisonment thematically fits what we're talking about. After all, the direct quote is

It pretty clearly says that he's been imprisoned.

Well what alternatives did you have in mind? It shouldn't be easy to imprison/bind Ythog-Nthlei if it took an order of wizards 200 years to succeed.

Hmm, I just noticed that quote has "sons of the old ones" - Ythog-Nthlei has brothers!

 

[freyar]

I don't think it should be easy, but he shouldn't have blanket immunity, either.

Beyond Time and Space (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei transcends spatial and temporal limitations. He is immune to time-manipulation effects such as slow, temporal stasis and magical aging; cannot be forcibly moved into another dimension by dispel evil, imprisonment, maze or any similar effect; and is not affected by dimensional anchor or dimensional lock.

He sees all adjacent dimensions clearly, including the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane and the interiors of extradimensional spaces such as a rope trick, maze or portable hole.

Ythog-Nthlei can attack incorporeal and out-of-phase targets without penalty and ignores the effects of blink or displacement powers.

Finally, if any creature uses time stop within X feet of Ythog-Nthlei he can attempt to interrupt the time stop as a free action. If Ythog-Nthlei succeeds at a Will save against the DC of the time stop, he can choose to have the time stop fail or actually enter the time stop with the other creature. If Ythog-Nthlei and another creature share a time stop they can target each other attacks or spells as if they were both in normal time, but creatures outside the time stop are invulnerable to their attacks and spells.

Ythog-Nthlei can use time- or space-manipulation powers on himself if wishes (i.e. the beyond time and space ability does not prevent him using haste on himself).

First of all, the time stop business is a bit complex and somewhat vague since time stop doesn't work "against" anyone. I'd honestly be happiest dropping that. Then, as for the stuff in the first paragraph, how about we change the immunity to a bonus on saves? That would make it difficult to do anything to him.