Minimum damage rule

[Snapdragyn]

A question came up in a 3.5 campaign last night concerning STR penalty & the minimum damage rule.

A halfling in the party w/ a -1 STR mod scored a hit, then rolled a 1 on his damage die. Our party bard was singing at the time. The DM said that the character did 1 point of damage: 1 rolled, -1 penalty = 0 + 1 bard song = 1. The players thought this should have been 2: 1 rolled, -1 penalty = 0, minimum damage rule adjusted to 1 + 1 bard song = 2.

We later had the same situation come up when he scored a crit, then rolled 1 twice on his damage dice. DM's ruling: 0 + 0 = 0, adjust to 1. Players' thinking: 0, adjusted to 1 + 0, adjusted to 1 = 2.

I expect this question will also come up once we get magic items, too.

We were unable to find anything which clearly explains the interaction of STR penalty adjustment, the minimum damage rule (& when to apply it), & additional damage sources such as bard song or multipliers such as crits. Does anyone know of an official 3.5 source that could resolve this quandry?

Help us, EN World, you're our only hope!

 

[S'mon]

Wow - buff some housecats and watch them destroy Caesar's Legions!

Edit: FWIW, I would apply the '1 pt minimum' rule after all modifiers.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Minimum Damage
If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

Well, there's the rule. I think it's pretty clear that the minimum damage is in reference to a hit (a crit is still a type of hit). Thus, I think the DM is right and the minimum applies only at the end of the process of determining damage.

 

[ImperatorK]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#minimumDamage
You apply all penalties and if they bring the damage to 0, you deal 1 point.

 

[the Jester]

Edit: FWIW, I would apply the '1 pt minimum' rule after all modifiers.

Yep. I never had this come up during my 3e games, but that's how I would rule, too.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Yep, the 1 pt minimum applies AFTER all the modifiers have been applied, not at some arbitrary point in the middle of the process of applying modifiers.

 

[Tovec]

Put another way:
1+1-1=1 (which is coincidentally the minimum)
It isn't 1-1=1 then +1 (to equal 2).

The crit; the rule says you roll twice but almost any game I've ever seen you don't. So assuming min damage:
1st roll: 1+1-1=1
2nd roll: 1+1-1=1
Total: 1+1 = 2

Would be the same damage if they didn't have the bard's song..

1-1=1 (minimum 1, never 0)
Or if they had another penalty of any sort..

1+1-1-6[somehow]=1 (never 0)

 

[Snapdragyn]

Having had a chance now to look through books, I offer as counterpoint PHB p. 306, the definition of critical hit in the glossary (in part):

"... Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rollirng damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue's sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)"

[Emphasis mine.]

If he had actually hit the defender two times, he would have done a minimum of 1 on each of those two independent hits, thus 2 damage. Therefore, rolling two 1s on his crit damage rolls with a -1 penalty from STR should also be 2 damage.

Because the bard song is a bonus applied to the damage roll, it counts as part of it & is not added after applying the minimum damage rule (as everyone here has stated & I have come to agree). Thus, the same crit w/ or w/o bard song (two 1s on damage rolls, -1 STR penalty) would produce the same damage: 2.

 

[S'mon]

"... Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rollirng damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue's sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)"

That in no way implies that you add damage bonuses or penalties twice. If your target has DR 10 and you crit with a x2 weapon, it doesn't become DR 20.

 

[Snapdragyn]

That in no way implies that you add damage bonuses or penalties twice. If your target has DR 10 and you crit with a x2 weapon, it doesn't become DR 20.

But you do most certainly add STR bonus twice - it even spells this out in the PHB, p. 140, bottom text:

"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."

[Emphasis mine.]

DR 10 from your example doesn't become DR 20 because you apply DR after calculating total damage - not to each individual damage source (in this case the 'base' damage & the 'crit' damage). See examples in the Main 3.5 FAQ.