A Thought on Turn-Based Movement

[LostSoul]

They don't know what the dragon is doing before he does it, do they?

Oh, right, yeah. I never looked at it like that before - I assumed that the PCs could figure out what their foes were doing (and vice-versa), except in extreme situations. That's probably too generous. So I guess I am not avoiding dissociated mechanics at all! I could put in a "know try to figure out what they're up to" roll, but no, that would be horrible.

Anyway, I enjoy it; it seems to work for me. Maybe this discussion - about a different way to resolve actions - has helped generate different ideas? Hope so.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION], that's the clearest version yet I've seen of your "hits combat" (I think that's what you used to call it). Thanks! (Needless to say, very interesting.)

The question is: "If someone starts to run from me, why don't I have at least a chance to chunk my spear at him as he running away."

You answer is, "you've got to chase them."

In the OP, and the example in green earlier in the thread, I'm trying to make it possible, in the easiest way possible, for the person asking that question above to be able to throw his spear and have a chance at hitting.

Isn't the answer to this particular question "Win initiative and ready an action to throw your spear if/when they run"?

Though I've never read it, I've heard that the initiative system in the new Marvel Heroic Roleplaying game is an interesting variant.

<snip>

"How does the GM pick the first character fairly?"

From p 35 of the "Operations Manual" (= MHRP core rules):

Once the Scene has been introduced to the players and the challenges are made clear, it’s time to swing the spotlight around. One of the players gets to go first, chosen by the Watcher based on the description of the Scene or by the consensus of the group. Quite often, this is the central leader hero, or the fastest one, or the one played by the player who speaks up first! If you’re the Watcher, you might decide this when you frame the Scene. Otherwise, go with who makes the most sense.​

In the online example of play, going is first is resolved thus:

Wolverine, you’ve got Enhanced Reflexes, so let’s have you go first. How are you going to respond?​

The GM (Watcher) can also interrupt a player (or have an NPC go first) by spending GM resources.

But I also think it's worth noting that the problem described in the OP woudn't really arise in MHRP - it's not a precise-distance, detailed-positioning resolution system. Either a player would be gong first, trying to take down the guard, and the guard would "defend" with his/her running ability; or the GM would have framed the scene as involving a fleeing guard, and the first player to act would be responding to that. Or maybe the GM spent a resource to have the guard act first, and the running away is, mechanically, an attempt to generate an advantage for that NPC on subsequent resolution (a "running away" asset, which can be added to future dice pools where it would be relevant).

 

[sheadunne]

While I don't see much issue with the entire thing (it seems more of a DM issue, since he introduced the guard in that position and could have just as easier said the guard didn't run or is surprised, or some variety), however, since it's clearly an issue with some people and the () doesn't work for some people, who prefer a dice-based response, or a "he wouldn't do that" response, I think a recap of all the issues at play would be beneficial in order to see what the real issue might be.

1. Distance vs thrown weapons
2. The Run Action (or even the 2x move action)
3. Initiative
4. Readying an action
5. Surprise

Did I miss anything?

1. This is an issue because of the 5' grid system. 10 feet away feels further in real life than on a 5' grid. It never really seems beneficial to throw a weapon in D&D when you can just step 5' and make a full attack action. The OP seems to want to recreate the feel of the scene in Apocolypto when the characters are running from the other group throwing spears. In D&D the throwers would get maybe one throw before the characters are out of range and that's only with a readied action. Either the range needs to increase for thrown weapons to compensate for the grid system (even if it's only a 10' range increase) or the grid system needs to decrease to 2 or 3 feet.

2. Their should be very few situations where the run action can be used (straight line, no difficult terrain, etc). It doesn't present itself very often, but when it does, it's usually the baddie making a run for it. I don't think splitting up movement will really get at the issue here. Maybe something like using the Run Action provokes attacks of opportunity from ranged attacks? If a character has a bow, crossbow, spear, handy, then they get an AOO on the person engaging in the run action. This doesn't mesh well with other actions and AOO from ranged weapons, but it does perhaps solve the issue. Although until you've gone in initiative you also don't get to make AOOs. But if you're breaking the AOO rules anyway, why not take it all the way

3. Initiative. It's not to difficult to gain a huge bonus to initiative (High teens are not uncommon in some of the games I've played). This makes any character who doesn't invest in initiative feel like they're always going last. Others have presented alternatives which seem to be more involved than a simple roll and turn-based system. It's not uncommon either for the character in the back to go first and have to either move through all the other characters, hold their action, or gain penalties to ranged attacks. I believe that earlier editions allowed for the us vs them initiative, but that doesn't seem to resolve the issue. You could use a cluster system to determine initiative (Initiative bonus 1-5, initiative bonus 6-10, initiative bonus, 11-15, etc., and then the clusters roll off to determine who does first within each cluster). Seems a bit too complex for my liking and I'm not sure that would help either. There's the ranged weapon attacks go first, followed by melee, followed by spells, followed by only movement system, but that just doesn't feel right. I don't know if there's a good single system for initiative, it's really up to the group to determine what feels right. I'm not sure any fix for initiative would really solve the OP issue.

4/5. Readying an action and surprise. You're not really suppose to have a "readied" action prior to the rolling of initiative, but sometimes it just makes sense. How else would you do a sweep of a building? Move/Ready, Move/Ready, Move/Ready, Fire. This would still need to be declared in some way, and it would slow down exploration (like searching each and every 5' square for traps and treasure). I don't think Readying an action is really suppose to counter the Surprise action either and if you're readied for an ambush (if you're strolling down a path) then it makes ambushing impossible. I don't think either of these would have solved the OP issue.

Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. I hope you find a way to make it work for you. There's nothing more frustrating than someone making a run for it!

 

[jmucchiello]

In 1st/2nd ed, we bastardized the combat system to segment by segment movement. So, the guard has initiative at 9 and the party at 4, so at 9 he starts running, he's 80 feet (initial 30 + 50 of running 10/segement) away at 4 when the party starts to chase after him. The thief might start moving at 6 because of high Dex when he's only 60 feet away. The wizard starts casting a spell on 4 and typically a 3rd level spell goes off at 1 when the guard has run 80 feet. Etc.

This really slows down combat since on any given segment, EVERYONE might be moving their mini 10 feet. This system had lots of problems, especially since some party members moved 6" or 9" or 12" depending on race/armor combinations. But it did make combat more logical.

 

[Greenfield]

In a variation on the theme, I had a problem with turn based movement in a D&D 3.5 game.

I'd done a Fighter/Ranger build with Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes as part of the core concept. He used a reach weapon (Spiked Chain). I'd done this build largely because the DM had a preference for hordes of lower hit die monsters.

Came the time for combat, the DM had the first of three monsters charge and attack. I knew that if I tripped this one the others would use a different tactic, even though they all ran on the same Initiative. I had to ask him if the others were going to charge in as well, and when he said yes I had to ask him to please plot all of their movements at once.

That was the first and last time he ever ran a unified movement phase against that character.

Ah, well, there went some wasted feats...

 

[Lanefan]

But, this isn't true simultaneous action, because if it were, it would be possible, but not definite, that Persus' arrow hits and kills the orc before the orc can swing at Fjallarr. Going by what you've said here, the orc will always get his swing whether Persus' arrow kills him or not.

Of course he would; even if the arrow hits him first for lethal damage he still gets his cinematic "dying strike" in before he keels over.

Simply put, if a system allows two melee combatants to kill each other at the same time it's probably close enough for me. Turn-based as written in many systems does not allow for this, and in fact makes it impossible; and this is a bug rather than a feature.

Lanefan

 

[airwalkrr]

TL;DR, but here is my two cents.

I have never, to my recollection, encountered the issue the OP mentions, but two quick fixes come to mind. The first is a variant rule which I believe is stated in the DMG. Simply, all actions on the first round of combat always function as surprise rounds, limiting each character to only one standard action. This reduces the benefit of winning initiative, but also gives both sides more of a chance to react. As for someone running past you and not making an attack as they are running past, this is exactly what attacks of opportunity and readied actions are meant to address. So I do not believe a player has a legitimate complaint in the OP's scenario where an opponent 30' ahead runs right past him and is now 90' behind. Either the player could take an attack of opportunity or ready an action to make an attack as the opponent moves past. If a player does not like being caught unaware for the surprise round and unable to make an attack of opportunity in this way, that is what the Combat Reflexes feat is for. Combat Reflexes plus a reach weapon is an excellent combination in this regard.

The second quick fix I will mention is to allow a player to take a readied action ahead of his turn, thereby giving up his next turn completely. I don't like this idea that much as it could easily disrupt many other mechanics in the game and most spellcasters would be constantly in danger of being interrupted by ranged attacks (not that spellcasters couldn't stand to be knocked down a peg or two).

So those are two ways I can imagine addressing this issue. But as I stated, it had never really come up.

 

[Greenfield]

May I point out that there is no Attack of Opportunity in that first round is the other guy acts first? Characters who haven't acted yet are considered flat footed, and don't get to make such attacks.

 

[airwalkrr]

May I point out that there is no Attack of Opportunity in that first round is the other guy acts first? Characters who haven't acted yet are considered flat footed, and don't get to make such attacks.

As I believe my post made clear I am fully aware if that so I am not sure what your point is. It doesn't have much to do with my post as I accounted for that in my first suggestion; shorten first rounds to standard action only or encourage players to take Combat Reflexes if it bothers them.

Also the road goes both ways. Player characters can take advantage of the rules to quickly flank if they win initiative or use touch attack spells more effectively against a flat-footed opponent. So it's not like the bad guys are the only ones who can potentially benefit from winning initiative by avoiding AoOs.

But really I think this not much of an issue if you just make all first rounds standard actions only.

 

[airwalkrr]

Or just allow attacks of opportunity whether the character is surprised or not. It lessens the benefit of Combat Reflexes, but if the DM feels the no AoO when surprised rule doesn't fit his game, he can get rid of it. It doesn't change the game that much as most combats last longer than one round so most of your combat will take place in round 2+.