D&D 5E Legends & Lore 4/1/2013

[Balesir]

Might be worth starting a new thread on this as an idea...

Feel free, but I already have what I need for a 4e implementation, thanx

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm not being defensive. I'm just concerned that the designers and too many of those playtesting think that a "tactical rules module" will cover the 4E fell adequately. That is an extremely shallow approach to take.

I'm inclined to agree. While I don't think 4e had one monolithic "feel" anymore than 3e or 2e or 1e did, I think it had sort of a drift in the rules (much like those editions might've). The combat rules were a BIG part of that drift, in many ways the central pillar, but they weren't the whole thing, and there's some subtleties that wouldn't be captured with just a minis-on-a-grid rules system, some subtleties that may have been presented in the combat system but that aren't confined to it.

Like, part of the "4e feel" I think is the blatant "protagonism" of the PC's. The PC's were mechanically, in the gameplay, the center of their strories, and the rules were written to assume that this was the case. Part of that is how 1st level PC's were survivable, awesomely skilled, already riddled with powers and abilities, from Level 1. Part of that is how nothing had stats unless it was a conceivable combat challenge. And while the powers and stats are all targeted at combat, the "protagonism" feel goes beyond combat.

But I think one of the things WotC discovered over the course of 4e is that this "protagonism" isn't always a good thing, and 4e made it hard to turn that off because it was so intrinsic as a baseline assumption to so many elements of the game. 5e hasn't shown many signs of that yet, but I think part of that is because the feel isn't hard to achieve, even in a game that doesn't make it intrinsic. Start your characters at level 3, don't bother with stats for things that aren't challenges, and DM in a certain "style," and you can capture it.

I think so much of the "4e feel" -- or the feel of any particular e, really -- boils down to a DMing style. Different e's have been more blatant about supporting different styles (4e's protagonism, 1e's Gygaxian dungeon-crawls, 2e's storytelling style), so I think the best 5e can do is make a lot of room for a lot of different styles.

 

[Nagol]

Can you explain what this means? I still don't understand it. How does Tide of Iron give a player more "narrative control" than Charm Person?

Because of the loose coupling between the power and the in-game effect. A player gets to/has to describe the special effect of the power -- how it appears, what is happening, how the surroundings and inhabitants act/react to cause the effect. That is the extra narrative control granted to/forced on players.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I have a feeling I'm going to regret joining this thread.

Can you explain what this means? I still don't understand it. How does Tide of Iron give a player more "narrative control" than Charm Person?

I can't speak for exactly what the Jester means here, but I might add that it has something to do with everyone potentially having access to more narrative control than before (*if* they want it), not just the ones wearing the "magic" hats. Yes, this is not something everyone wants (see the part about *if* they want it), but that's not the question being asked, so let's just leave that one to stand, as being part of the "4e feel."

Also: Action Points.

To the now-ongoing list, I would also add the pacing changes that Encounter-based resources and adding Healing Surges to the game allows. Though the game didn't spell it out, this is a dial and very easily turned via the ambiguous definition of "Extended Rest."

 

[Balesir]

To the now-ongoing list, I would also add the pacing changes that Encounter-based resources and adding Healing Surges to the game allows. Though the game didn't spell it out, this is a dial and very easily turned via the ambiguous definition of "Extended Rest."

That's actually a good point, and shows how everything - from the durations of effects to the nature of what spells do to the way monsters and NPCs are statted up - is removed from measurements that have meaning in the game world but no meaning in the actual play of the game (i.e. in the "real" world). Having game-time durations (rather than "until the end of the encounter" or some such) in practice just means that as GM I have to "turn it off" at some arbitrary point. So it all comes down to whether I think the characters "should" succeed or not, again. With 4e, not only do I not need to make this sort of sour call when I'm GMing, the players can make decisions based on durations that they can rely upon, rather than hoping that my idea of what the characters can do in X "game minutes" is the same (or more generous) than their idea of the same.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Because of the loose coupling between the power and the in-game effect. A player gets to/has to describe the special effect of the power -- how it appears, what is happening, how the surroundings and inhabitants act/react to cause the effect. That is the extra narrative control granted to/forced on players.

Can you show me an example? I'm looking through the Player's Handbook right now, and all the powers have flavor text that explain what they're supposed to represent.

I can't speak for exactly what the Jester means here, but I might add that it has something to do with everyone potentially having access to more narrative control than before (*if* they want it), not just the ones wearing the "magic" hats.

Can you show me an example of something that gives a non-magic character more narrative control than before? Can you show me an example of something that gives a magical character more narrative control than before?

 

[Nagol]

Can you show me an example? I'm looking through the Player's Handbook right now, and all the powers have flavor text that explain what they're supposed to represent.

Can you show me an example of something that gives a non-magic character more narrative control than before? Can you show me an example of something that gives a magical character more narrative control than before?

I don't have the books any more, but first I'll direct you to the introductory section where the format for powers is described. Flavour Text is explicitly called out as being alterable by the player so long as the mechanical effects remain stable.

I'll avoid the poster child (CaGI) and stick with Tide of Iron. Tide of Iron, from memory, damages and moves the opponent on a successful hit. That effect is described as a shove but could just as easily be the opponent is knocked a bit off balance and shifts on his own accord to recover safely or a knick in the thigh that forces the opponent to involuntarily jump back, fancy footwork that causes the opponent to shift opening a hole in his defence and allowing the hit, or pretty much any other combat move / opponent response that provides the required mechanical effect.

Magic Missiles may be screaming skulls, iridescent translucent darts, or blaster fire from the palm of the mage. And that can shift round to round at the player's whim.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Can you show me an example? I'm looking through the Player's Handbook right now, and all the powers have flavor text that explain what they're supposed to represent.

The player's handbook also specifically spells out that you are allowed and in fact encourage to alter this to suit. The default flavour presentation of these things is intended as a suggestion. It's fairly explicit.

Flavor Text
The next section of a power description gives a brief explanation of what the power does, sometimes including information about what it looks or sounds like.

A power’s flavor text helps you understand what happens when you use a power and how you might describe it when you use it. You can alter this description as you like, to fit your own idea of what your power looks like. Your wizard’s magic missile spell, for example, might create phantasmal skulls that howl through the air to strike your opponent, rather than simple bolts of magical energy.

When you need to know the exact effect, look at the rules text that follows.

Can you show me an example of something that gives a non-magic character more narrative control than before?

Pick a non-magical power. Most of them grant a non-magical character more narrative control than any previous edition has allowed them. You get to pick your moment to (try to) make something happen, much as spellcasters have always done.

Also, not a part of the powers system, but Rituals. Anyone can use them for the cost of a feat and being trained in an appropriate skill.

Can you show me an example of something that gives a magical character more narrative control than before?

The fact that the powers explicitly allow you to reflavour them give everyone more narrative say-so than they had before.

Why do I get the feeling I'm being trolled?

 

[fjw70]

I don't think Tide of Iron gives more narrative to the player. It is just the character pushing the monster. Charm Person doesn't give narrative control either since the the character is just influencing the monster. The DM still makes decisions for the monster (taking the charming ino account).

However, Come and Get It does give the player narrative control since using the power the player (not the character) decides what the monster does.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I'll avoid the poster child (CaGI) and stick with Tide of Iron. Tide of Iron, from memory, damages and moves the opponent on a successful hit. That effect is described as a shove but could just as easily be the opponent is knocked a bit off balance and shifts on his own accord to recover safely or a knick in the thigh that forces the opponent to involuntarily jump back, fancy footwork that causes the opponent to shift opening a hole in his defence and allowing the hit, or pretty much any other combat move / opponent response that provides the required mechanical effect.

Magic Missiles may be screaming skulls, iridescent translucent darts, or blaster fire from the palm of the mage. And that can shift round to round at the player's whim.

The fact that the powers explicitly allow you to reflavour them give everyone more narrative say-so than they had before.

Ah, okay. So when you say "narrative," you literally mean "narration," as in the player gets to narrate what happens in-world, even though it doesn't actually change the outcome.

How is that different from a feat/maneuver like Bull Rush or Cleave? Why can't a player say he has a green fireball in AD&D?