Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder w/o Cleric?

[Mad Hamish]

As far as healing goes
- generally it's a bad tradeoff doing healing during combat. It's probably most necessary at very low levels and more effective either when you get heal or when you have abilities where you can heal people without eating up your major actions. There are always cases when you might need to dump an emergency cure on somebody because they've just taken a critical or something similar but normally you're better off doing something else.
- wands of cure light wounds are o.k. for in combat healing at very low levels and very good for out of combat healing at any level. It takes time but between combats it normally doesn't matter much.
- If you have witches, bards, rangers, paladins or inquisitors they can do some healing and a group with a lot of them will be o.k. for post combat recovery.
- A paladin can take a lot of pressure off from in-combat healing by laying hands on themselves, an Alchemist can take some pressure off with the right discovery as well.
- Summoners and casters who do summoning spells can reduce the need for in-combat healing if they use their summoned creatures or Eidolons effectively. and there are some summoned creatures who can heal.
- Wizards, Magus, summoners and sorcerors can do a bit if they're willing to take Infernal Healing, it heals 10 hp over a minute cure light maxes out at 8-13 so it's comparable, Infernal Healing Greater cures 40 hp over 10 rounds but it's a 4th level spell.

- the party might need to do more to restrict the opposition (they can't cause damage if they can't get to you) and depending on how you run magic item acquisition they might have to buy more consumables or put more of a priority on defensive items over offensive items

 

[Stormonu]

At low levels (about 1-3), it's fairly easy to get along without a cleric. As you get higher and the damage starts to pile up, it can get frustrating for players who don't have a cleric in their group if natural healing and/or access to magical healing isn't somehow adjusted. My experience has been that after about 6th level, without some sort of magical healing or scaling natural healing, the game becomes more frustrating than fun.

I've always hated that the healing skill never actually restored hp, or a pittance at best. And no party enjoys watching gobs of money being expended in a vicious cycle of acquiring magical goods to heal ("We go on adventures for money. During those adventures, we get hurt. We have to spend the money we earned to heal the damage we took. Then we have to go adventuring to pay for more healing ...")

If you make the cleric-less party rely on natural healing, I've found you're more likely to see 5MWD, as after one or two scapes at most, the party is reluctant - if not rightly fearful - of going further for fear of getting killed.

The big problem is making any changes in a way that it does not invalidate nor boost the cleric should the party composition or campaign change.

Personally, in my campaign I've made healing potions quite common (and often non-magical in nature - sold by "wise women" and "country doctors" more often than available by churches) and relatively cheap. I've also bumped natural healing equal to HD * Level per day (allowing a number of dice to be rerolled equal to Con mod). Finally, I've also allowed the Heal skill to heal 1d4 + 1d4/4 pts past DC 15 once per person per day. Conversely, I've also banned Divine wands of any sort as well as scrolls of healing. It's worked for my games, but I don't usually play past 9th level.

 

[MerricB]

Given 3e/PF isn't an Encounter based game where you're expected to be full each fight, you don't want everyone healing 1/4 of their hitpoints. It should be a minor emergency heal to keep going, usable every so often.

3E/PF does pretty much expect everyone on full HP for each fight. Monsters hit *hard*, and you need to heal their damage. The problem with not having a healer doesn't come so much between battles (where potions and wands of CLW can carry the slack), but actually *in* battle, when the fighter goes down. Even more so as you lose the specific spells the cleric has to deal with nasty monsters, particularly undead. A lot of 3E/PF battles assume you can cast death ward, restoration and such spells, without them, they may well be impossible.

The idea of 4E healing surges came from 3E: everyone healed up to full after every fight (clerics, wands of cure light wounds in particular), and so instead of depleting the cleric's resources, you depleted a personal resource. It didn't model the world that well, but it modelled how most 3E games played very well.

Running an Adventure Path without the core casters is TOUGH. You need to think not just about healing but also the other spells the cleric brings to the fray.

Cheers!

 

[Clyde Lee Graham]

I've always hated that the healing skill never actually restored hp, or a pittance at best. And no party enjoys watching gobs of money being expended in a vicious cycle of acquiring magical goods to heal ("We go on adventures for money. During those adventures, we get hurt. We have to spend the money we earned to heal the damage we took. Then we have to go adventuring to pay for more healing ...")

I'm not sure I'd call 1hp/target level (plus healer's WIS mod if DC is exceeded by 5) instantly, plus 2hp/target level for 8 hours of rest a pittance, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion. As it is, a 1st level fighter could heal back from death's door in 3 days or so... and it scales with the target's level. Sure, that's not remotely realistic (way too fast) but I'm fine with that.

 

[Jester David]

3E/PF does pretty much expect everyone on full HP for each fight. Monsters hit *hard*, and you need to heal their damage. The problem with not having a healer doesn't come so much between battles (where potions and wands of CLW can carry the slack), but actually *in* battle, when the fighter goes down.

I'd argue this is more the player's reaction to the system than the system itself. It's an accidental byproduct of cheap crafting, magic item vendors, and the presumed easy availability of wands. Even then, it's well into the game before the party has enough resources to heal themselves to full after every fight. More often they'll just give themselves a small bump and carry on at 75% and heal the particularly injured.

Even more so as you lose the specific spells the cleric has to deal with nasty monsters, particularly undead. A lot of 3E/PF battles assume you can cast death ward, restoration and such spells, without them, they may well be impossible.

Assume might be a strong word, because even if you have a divine caster that doesn't guarantee they'll have those spells prepared that day unless warned ahead of time. Much of a cleric's potency comes in being able to cast those spells the next day, well after the combat.
A non-combative NPC handled through the Leadership feat could do much the same (and might not be a bad idea).

Running an Adventure Path without the core casters is TOUGH. You need to think not just about healing but also the other spells the cleric brings to the fray.

True, but that's not what the OP asked.
And is much more adventure and encounter specific. Some fights might be harder than others. Other fights might be easier with more damage or an extra tank.
But sometimes they might have to retreat to town to have NPC spellcasters use some restorations and other healing spells.

 

[Mad Hamish]

A lot of it's going to depend on what the party composition is (and what the size of the group is)
It's possible that a group with 2 wizards or a wizard and a sorcerer might find an adventure easier than a group which has a wizard and a cleric in those slots.
A wizard and an inquisitor might be about the same for ease.
2 rogues in place of a wizard and a cleric will almost certainly find things a lot harder...

And a group with a lot of summoning will probably find it easier than a group which chucks fireballs around.

 

[Stormonu]

I'm not sure I'd call 1hp/target level (plus healer's WIS mod if DC is exceeded by 5) instantly, plus 2hp/target level for 8 hours of rest a pittance, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion. As it is, a 1st level fighter could heal back from death's door in 3 days or so... and it scales with the target's level. Sure, that's not remotely realistic (way too fast) but I'm fine with that.

Well, as I said, at 1st-3rd level it's not so bad, but when you look at something like a 6th level fighter, healing about 10 HP at the end of the day with a really good roll is a pittance out of an "average" of 45 hp. That's probably less than one attack's worth of damage.

<EDIT> I should state my issue isn't really with end-of-the-day healing. It's with healing just after a fight with the Heal skill. As if it were against the laws of the universe to allow any heal skill to give back hit points as some sort of first-aid measure.

 

[Walking Dad]

I'd argue this is more the player's reaction to the system than the system itself. It's an accidental byproduct of cheap crafting, magic item vendors, and the presumed easy availability of wands. Even then, it's well into the game before the party has enough resources to heal themselves to full after every fight. More often they'll just give themselves a small bump and carry on at 75% and heal the particularly injured.

Well, I play since AD&D 2nd and I never encountered a party carrying on unhealed. Either they rested at first opportunity or they used magic healing. Before 3.0, they actually used healing magic and rested immediately afterwards, hoping for no "wandering monster".
And "well into the game" in Pathfinder is what? "Wealth by level" assumes 1k gold for each character at second level. Even in a three person group, everyone has only to pool a fourth of that to buy a CLW wand.

Assume might be a strong word, because even if you have a divine caster that doesn't guarantee they'll have those spells prepared that day unless warned ahead of time. Much of a cleric's potency comes in being able to cast those spells the next day, well after the combat.
A non-combative NPC handled through the Leadership feat could do much the same (and might not be a bad idea).

It assumes it the second vampire or bodak or anything encounter in a published undead themed adventure.
Leadership on the other hand is a very bad and abusive feat (one of the reasons Pathfinder Society play banned this feat).

True, but that's not what the OP asked.
And is much more adventure and encounter specific. Some fights might be harder than others. Other fights might be easier with more damage or an extra tank.
But sometimes they might have to retreat to town to have NPC spellcasters use some restorations and other healing spells.

Yes, the OP didn't asked, showing a possible lack of understanding for this possible problem. And very few fights are going to be easier with one more tank instead of one less tank, the tanks and all others benefiting from divine magic. And the "retreat town" option is very depending on the campaign and adventure.

Unusual party composition is easiest to handle by changing the challenges they face. "No spellcasters", for example, should make you use less swarms and no incorporeal enemies until specific magic items against them are in players' hands.

If the OP posts the actual party composition, I may offer a more specific help.
Bards, Paladins, etc all have party healing options.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

3.5Ed had a feat called Sacred Healing in Complete Divine that lets you burn a Turn Undead (and only TU) to give Fast Healing 3 for (1+Cha bonus)rds in a 60' burst. Which means, if you have a Paladin, this gives him something he can do with his turning ability on an equal footing with any other PC who can TU.

It may not sound like much, but that (plus Extra Turning) can make for a powerful healer, at least, out of combat. I used it with a PC in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and almost never had to cast an actual healing spell. Even though it only heals as many HP/PC as a low level healing spell, it does it to all beings within that 60' burst- that is potentially hundreds of HP healed by a single action. Plus, since it is FH3, while it is in effect, it will halt any continual damage, like a blow from a winding weapon, or being knocked under 0 HP and dying.

Just tweak it a bit for Pathfinder if you have a PC with an analogous ability in the party.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Even more so as you lose the specific spells the cleric has to deal with nasty monsters, particularly undead. A lot of 3E/PF battles assume you can cast death ward, restoration and such spells, without them, they may well be impossible.

...

Running an Adventure Path without the core casters is TOUGH. You need to think not just about healing but also the other spells the cleric brings to the fray.

Cheers!

When my current Kingmaker campaign was going through the Varnhold Vanishing, we were attacked by flocks of birds which could inflict the blinding condition.

After the battle, half the PCs were blinded. We didn't have a cleric or equivalent (oracle, etc). As my druid hadn't prepped the Remove Blindness spell, we had to wait till the next day to remove it. Adventuring screeched to a halt. If we'd had a wizard, they wouldn't have been able to read their spellbook and prep spells at all! The next day, I healed them... and realized a bit later that Remove Blindness isn't on the druid list! I told the DM, who let it slide, once. We'd found a bunch of scrolls, such as Restoration, which my druid couldn't cast either because they're not on the list. (Lesser Restoration is, though.)

In fact, we can only use the scrolls because a new player is a sorcerer with a very high Use Magic Device check. :/

Even in the core rules, the game practically demands you have a cleric, unless you're willing to do a lot of work sanity-checking every encounter.