D&D 5E Humanoids, and playing monstrous races

[Sunseeker]

Shidaku's suggestion that there be a stated "level minimum" for these more "advanced" races is a curious one. I think that could work...at least for the "official line" framing the game. Ya know folks'll be breaking that wide open at home. But that's not really something that can be helped. At least the effort is there to say "these guys are BAD! [like Michael Jackson "Bad"] and shouldn't be used in campaigns as PCs below X level."

Almost like D&D would be coming full circle. Started out with level maxes for non-human races, now introducing non-human min's. hahaha. That tickles me in some odd way. [yes, I know, 1e npc Drow already had these].

I mean lets say Drow or Gith are normally "tougher" races. Well..WHY are they tougher races? Are they genetically superior races? If so, WHY are they genetically superior? Centuries of eugenics within the species I would imagine, but lets for a moment consider the implications of writing that into D&D. I'm not sure I'm really okay with the idea of that being written into D&D. I mean we're kind of used to it with the Drow, but how many humanoid races are going to be forced to join this because of the idea that they are "naturally" superior?

I don't think these races are naturally or unnaturally superior, I think it's a perspective issue. The Drow, the Gith, the other creatures you and I as adventurers usually see are NOT representative of the whole. They are trained soldiers, trained assassins, clerics or wizards. We don't really run into "Generic Gith Farmer" or "Generic Drow Townsfolk". We usually run into the Gith war party, or the Drow raider party or the evil temple to Lolth or whatever. Where on the other hand, we run into Bob the farm-hand and Debbie the milk-maid on a regular basis. I think our history of setting up races like Gith or Drow as cultureless evil-doers without all the mundanity of "nice" societies has led us to a point where we simply don't think of Drow commoners or untrained Gith.

This is what I like about the concept of the "Drow Noble" and the "Drow". The Drow noble represents the genetically-enhanced, bred-for-power part of society that we, as adventurers are familiar with, while the mundane "Drow" represents the every-day rabble that populate the majority of Drow society. I mean Drow society may encourage backstabbing and betrayal, but that doesn't mean that every Drow is a master assassin, it just means it's socially encouraged.

A 5'-6' humanoid with an average build is not going to be significantly more powerful without some sort of underlying magical, genetic, or supernatural enhancement. And if we're going that route, I think we have to tread carefully to avoid setting the precedent that ALL non-humans MUST have this underlying quality to them in order for them to be superior to humans.

IMO: All near-humans, such as elf-variants, short peoples, skinny peoples fat people's should have a "core" PC-based component to them. It keeps the math simple. Any additional elements are then layered on top as special feats, magical abilities, unnatural enhancement, templates or class levels.

It keeps the math constant. For monstrous humanoids, lets emphaize that "monstrous", add in "young", "mature" or "old" templates, "advanced", "monstrous", "brute", or some other thing. It keeps the math constant, this was one of the biggest flaws of pre-4e editions, editions that DDN is desperatley trying to imitate in an effort to recapture lost fans and Pathfinder players. What DDN cannot allow itsself to do is repeat the math irrelevant mish-mash that those editions became. If there's no logic, no reason, no underlying math behind the scenes then the game makes no sense, and we get all sorts of things that we had in previous editions where CRs were meaningless, LAs were irrelevant and there was no way we could discern if one fight or one foe or one class would be a 10 or a 1.

 

[frankthedm]

Drow have always been meh IMHO. Elves don't need burnt cork, cocoa butter and superfluous SLA's to have subterranean evil empire.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I want to go back to the days when humanoids' stats were mostly defined by class and level. Drow weren't tough because they were drow; they were tough because they were 7th-level fighters. That makes a lot more sense than just saying a drow is a level 4 monster.

 

[Li Shenron]

However, while the 3.5 MM did indeed have info on playing some monsters (at least with level adjustments and such, and with some having more specific entries), the 3.0 MM did not.

I don't have the books at hand, but didn't the 3.0 DMG have at least some guidelines (not alternative stats of monsters-as-races)?

 

[Sunseeker]

I want to go back to the days when humanoids' stats were mostly defined by class and level. Drow weren't tough because they were drow; they were tough because they were 7th-level fighters. That makes a lot more sense than just saying a drow is a level 4 monster.

Exactly, and if they want to develop racial advancement paths that can be taken as feats or some other subsystem so that we can have Drow who are both advanced in their Drowy ways, but also in class levels, fine. But unless there is a significantly inhuman element to the creature(such as size, number or type of limbs, magical nature or physical qualities), there's no reason to add inhuman comqualities in a vain attempt to make them stand out. Near-humans should be differntiated visually and culturally. Different power levels should stem primarily from class levels.

 

[the Jester]

I don't have the books at hand, but didn't the 3.0 DMG have at least some guidelines (not alternative stats of monsters-as-races)?

Ahh, you're right! I stand corrected!

 

[Li Shenron]

Ahh, you're right! I stand corrected!

I guess it's one of those things of the 3.0 DMG that easily went unnoticed like 0th-level characters not many groups were using those...

 

[Gorgoroth]

Maybe their entire culture, being warlike like the Spartans, was centered around military training and combat applicability, even down to what spells their clerics would prepare, and what training the average dude would get. I.e. lots and lots. If humans are all level 0 or 1 for the most part, then Drow should have some type of forced military service, where their training involves actual monster killing on runs (due to necessity from living in the Underdark), and thus the average Drow you meet is a very dangerous foe, like level 4-7 fighter sounds fine as others here have said.

I don't think they need too many inherent bonuses or perks, other than darkvision 120 (to be better than the dwarves at it), but sensitivity to normal light (perhaps disadvantage to attack rolls, thus they avoid it because it is their Achilles heel). I want a real mechanical reason for them to stick underground or do nighttime-only raids on the surface. I.e. their footsoldiers are more akin to navy seals. The Drow nobles, OTOH, could have some supernatural enhancements to their breeding stock, such as advantage on all attacks while near their city or something ridiculously OP like that, but put them strictly out of the hands of players.

 

[Kavon]

I mean lets say Drow or Gith are normally "tougher" races. Well..WHY are they tougher races? Are they genetically superior races? If so, WHY are they genetically superior? Centuries of eugenics within the species I would imagine, but lets for a moment consider the implications of writing that into D&D. I'm not sure I'm really okay with the idea of that being written into D&D. I mean we're kind of used to it with the Drow, but how many humanoid races are going to be forced to join this because of the idea that they are "naturally" superior?

I would imagine it's the same reason that in the Dune universe the general "wild" Fremen commoner is far more deadly than the city dwelling Fremen (and I would say even those are more deadly than some soft, water world, commoners). Similarly, from the same universe, there are the Imperial Sardaukar from the prison planet Salusa Secundus.
The Underdark and the Astral places where the Drow and Githyanki live and grow up should have quite some influence on how tough they have to be to survive.
I would guess that when a baby were to be found and raised by common farmers, they won't be quite so tough and resilient when it grows up as the usual Drow or Githyanki.

...in their Drowy ways...

I totally didn't just read that as "in their Drowzy ways"

 

[Weather Report]

I guess it's one of those things of the 3.0 DMG that easily went unnoticed like 0th-level characters not many groups were using those...

I also like the random outdoor distances action; shame they removed that in the 3.5 DMG.