D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[Hussar]

I think, rather, that what Hussar is saying is that "I [meaning Hussar] don't think that Planescape materials should be considered 'canon' for purposes of defining monsters going forward." Which leaves out the straw-man attacks, but includes the discussion of whether certain 2nd ed planar concepts (e.g. the Blood War) are "Planescape" or "Core" materials.

Which I personally disagree with, especially for Yugoloths - I think that Planescape gave characterization to the outsiders that previously had none, and that some description is better than none.

Yup, this is what I've been trying to say. Saying it badly, apparently. But, yup, what I've been trying to say.

If that's the case, then he's making the same mistake that steeldragons is. Turns out, Planescape is D&D, just as much as Dragonlance, FR, Greyhawk, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Birthright, Eberron...it's all D&D, and anyone who plays D&D should expect the game to support any of those takes (or all of them at once, if you're into that grand unified multiverse stuff).

Yes and no. I'm not going to get into the "it is or is not really D&D" wank because there's no recovery from that.

However, I don't presume that a specific setting applies any further than that specific setting. I don't presume that just because Forgotten Realms has good aligned liches, that all of D&D needs good aligned liches in core. I do differentiate between specific settings and core.

All of D&D will use core. It probably won't use all of core, but, it will use core. No matter what setting I'm playing, homebrew or published, it will use core. The more setting specific material in core, the more restrictive that core becomes. I watched the Scarred Lands dev's try to tapdance around D&D's cosmology when it really, really didn't fit. For some reason, Blood War elements pop up in Scarred Lands, only because Blood War elements pop up in core.

So, while you are totally correct that Planescape or Dragonlance et al are all D&D, it doesn't follow that everything in those specific settings needs to bleed into the rest of the game. There's nothing wrong with partitioning elements off from each other.

 

[Hussar]

I have to admit that KM's diagram would be more accurately concentric circles and not a Venn Diagram.

D&D on the outside with bubbles of various settings inside with various setting specific elements inside those circles.

Only thing is, we have to content with PS lore bleeding out into the rest of the settings. For some reason, it's perfectly understandable that Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms have completely different settings, but, as soon as we enter the planes, we must play Planescape.

Why can't Planescape specific elements be contained within their own circles, exactly the same as every other setting specific element is?

 

[Alzrius]

I have to admit that KM's diagram would be more accurately concentric circles and not a Venn Diagram.

Untrue. He noted that some Dragonlance falls outside of D&D, which it does: SAGA edition (though I'm not sure, as Echohawk noted, what kender fall outside of Dragonlance and D&D both).

D&D on the outside with bubbles of various settings inside with various setting specific elements inside those circles.

Only thing is, we have to content with PS lore bleeding out into the rest of the settings. For some reason, it's perfectly understandable that Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms have completely different settings, but, as soon as we enter the planes, we must play Planescape.

Also untrue. No one is telling you what you "must" play.

Why can't Planescape specific elements be contained within their own circles, exactly the same as every other setting specific element is?

Because there are a lot of people who don't want it to be that way, for one reason.

 

[steeldragons]

That's not a big deal ("canon" even!). It's just not a major part of what makes yugoloths interesting as props in D&D, and is a more important part of the bag of other critters. So in that case my criticism would be more about wasting wordcount on something that isn't going to be very useful at getting at what makes yugoloths fun to play with. It arises out of their more interesting mercenary tendencies, which can include but does not limit them to the occasional evil god.

"Interesting" to whom? "Fun to play with" for whom?

When did you become arbiter of what is fun or interesting for all of D&Ddom? Wish I'd known. I'd've sent flowers...or a congratulatory coffee mug or something...maybe a hat. One can never have too many hats, gloves and shoes...



..huh? What was I saying? Oh yeah...

...and I don't believe anyone has suggested taking away their mercenary tendencies. That's not really part of the discussion, just thought I'd make that clear.

...and the game that people are playing when they play in those settings ain't GURPS, is it?

Fair enough. I misspoke [it was rather late/early]. Yes, they are playing D&D...in Dragonlance. My point was that Dragonlance is not the D&D game. It is A D&D game. Like Eberron is a D&D game or FR or PS or or or. And I can play D&D not in ANY of those settings. The assumptions of a setting of D&D should not be included in the core of the game. That's all I'm trying to get across.

Getting at this might be getting at the underlying issue here, in all its potential gatekeeping/tribalist finery. It has a lot to do with local design and what "core" means in relation to that. And on this, I come down on the side of the 2e Monstrous Manual, for a lot of reasons.

As a way to illustrate this, this comment:

....is an example of an entirely artificial, largely irrelevant distinction.

"local design" TL/DR. Can you explain what you're trying to say in 50 words or less? And what "coming down on the side of the 2e MM" means? I also am not following your "illustration"...might be the sleep deprivation, but I'm not sure that's entirely why.

Why/how is it artificial or irrelevant? Kender are from the Dragonlance setting. They belong in Dragonlance, not core. Yugoloths of a certain lore are from Planescape. They belong in PS, not core. That's where/what they were created for. I don't see how that is 'artificial irrelevant distinction'. No one's trying to "take your kender or yugoloths away." Simply put/keep them where they belong. Make everything nice n' tidy.

In fact, you could make a Venn Diagram: The circle of Dragonlance overlaps the circle of D&D, and the circle of Kender is within the circle of Dragonlance...which is within the circle of D&D...which means that Kender are part of D&D.

View attachment 57481

uh...huh....Well I guess, according to this lovely diagram, I would move the kender to be completely within the Dragonlance circle. They only have relevance within that circle. They do not exist outside of it. They were created, specifically, for that setting. Still puts them in the D&D circle...but I don't see what the point of this is. They have no purpose or use outside of that setting. The Dragonlance circle goes inside the D&D circle...it was created b it, for it. It does not have an existence or relevance outside of D&D...so, in fact, as I see it, it looks like you can't actually make a Venn diagram about it, cuz the circles just all sit within each other, not overlapping.

I could make the exact same diagram using Planescape instead of Dragonlance and PS Yugoloths instead of Kender. The results are/would be the same. The daemons go IN, all the way in not "overlapping", PS.

And/or, better yet, a diagram where Dragonlance and Planescape are separate circles...BOTH within D&D. The PS circle is in D&D, within which are god-hating yugoloths...next to the circle of Dragonlance, within which are kender and pirate minotaurs...next to the circle of Eberron, within which are warforged and electro-magic trains...and a circle for FR and a circle for Greyhawk and a circle for every other setting and homebrew out there. I suppose, since PS was deliberately a meta-setting, a bunch of those other circles would be inside of PS...but be that as it may...All of the space that is NOT within one of those setting circles...but those setting rings are floating around in...that's the core of D&D.

Are we going to have an issue now about where I'm expecting/preferring the circles are put? Am I not doing it "right"?

 

[I'm A Banana]

However, I don't presume that a specific setting applies any further than that specific setting.

I have to admit that KM's diagram would be more accurately concentric circles and not a Venn Diagram.

uh...huh....Well I guess, according to this lovely diagram, I would move the kender to be completely within the Dragonlance circle. They only have relevance within that circle. They do not exist outside of it. They were created, specifically, for that setting. Still puts them in the D&D circle...but I don't see what the point of this is. They have no purpose or use outside of that setting. The Dragonlance circle goes inside the D&D circle...it was created b it, for it. It does not have an existence or relevance outside of D&D...so, in fact, as I see it, it looks like you can't actually make a Venn diagram about it, cuz the circles just all sit within each other, not overlapping.

"Well there's yer problem!" </repairguy>

though I'm not sure, as Echohawk noted, what kender fall outside of Dragonlance and D&D both

Put the race outside of the bounds of D&D and Dragonlance and you have characters from the Eleventh Doctor to JD from Scrubs to a certain youth to half of shonen anime protagonists (Naruto, Luffy...).

Even closer to the fantasy roots, you have a galaxy of mischievous "little people." Leprechauns and brownies and pucks and pookas and even some versions of goblins all hoe the same row as kender.

There's a lot of creatures and characters who are basically kender, but not called that, because they're not part of DL.

"Kender" is a bucket for a lot of ideas itself, and once you take it out of D&D and DL.

Nothing is new under the sun, after all.

All of D&D will use core. It probably won't use all of core, but, it will use core. No matter what setting I'm playing, homebrew or published, it will use core.

Nope.

All of D&D is mediated through a DM for a particular group.

"Core" is subjective in practice, functionally.

"local design" TLDR. Can you explain what you're trying to say in 50 words or less?

I can lead you to water, horse, but I cannot make you drink.

 

[Alzrius]

uh...huh....Well I guess, according to this lovely diagram, I would move the kender to be completely within the Dragonlance circle. They only have relevance within that circle. They do not exist outside of it.

It's worth noting that there's at least one instance of a kender existing outside of Dragonlance, though that was in a novel (Tymora's Luck by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb), wherein he was interacting with Forgotten Realms NPCs in the Planescape setting (and, at the end of the novel, he went to the Realms).

That's not necessarily the most germane distinction, I'll grant, but it is something.

 

[steeldragons]

It's worth noting that there's at least one instance of a kender existing outside of Dragonlance, though that was in a novel (Tymora's Luck by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb), wherein he was interacting with Forgotten Realms NPCs in the Planescape setting (and, at the end of the novel, he went to the Realms).

That's not necessarily the most germane distinction, I'll grant, but it is something.

Good to know. Ssss'ok...the kender circle is allowed to straddle the Dragonlance ring and dip juuuust a lil' edge in the Forgotten Realms ring that are both overlapping with the Planscape ring...within the D&D ring since DL and FR are within D&D and so, the novel taking place in those...places...is obviously also a D&D novel...floating around in the D&D gooey goodness.

 

[RichGreen]

It's worth noting that there's at least one instance of a kender existing outside of Dragonlance, though that was in a novel (Tymora's Luck by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb), wherein he was interacting with Forgotten Realms NPCs in the Planescape setting (and, at the end of the novel, he went to the Realms).

That's not necessarily the most germane distinction, I'll grant, but it is something.

I think there was a kender in Beyond the Moons too.

 

[steeldragons]

Originally Posted by steeldragons
"local design" TLDR. Can you explain what you're trying to say in 50 words or less?

I can lead you to water, horse, but I cannot make you drink.

So, that's a "no", then?

Right-o. I think we're done here.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, that's a "no", then?

Right-o. I think we're done here.

So you don't want to understand my point?

Yeah, I guess there's not much point to this convo then. Unless you're going to give me pie.