D&D 5E [Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?

I don't know even know what to say. 4E had its moment on the pedestal, and you can still play it. You can probably even play 4E-esque modules for D&D Next in the future. In the meantime, D&D Next is trying something else. So, um, I don't know, sorry?
No, I'm good with what I have. It's just that Next is continually taking one step forward, and another back. I want to love it, believe me. I don't want another 4e - mine works fine - but I do want a better game than we seem to be getting.

-O
 

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Why not? Fantasy fiction is replete with legendary "sidekicks". For some reason this seems to be difficult for certain people to understand, but most of us are not interested in being the alpha dog. Sidekick, companion, support character, noncombatant, and a variety of other roles are entirely valid choices, ones that if anything we should be encouraging.

After all, what kind of game would we have if we had parties of four or more people and no sidekicks? That's a recipe for disaster.

Moreover, in D&D this dynamic is well-established. You don't see Caramon bitching that he can't do the things that Raistlin Majere can, and indeed the latter values him tremendously. Nor does the god-wizard (i.e. Elminster) cause problems. People are still lining up to play Drizzt clones despite the fact that he isn't a "CoDzilla" (and if there's one setting that emphasizes the power of spellcasters, it's FR). In fact, to enforce the kind changes in class balance you're getting at, you'd pretty much have to tear down the D&D aesthetic, and all of its settings. As you may be aware, this was actually done, and it failed to produce the desired effect, never mind the cost.

No, it doesn't. The people at the table are the ones responsible for balancing the game. If they do a poor job, the results will speak for themselves. If they do even a half decent job, the game will work, completely irrespective of what rules they're using.

Nobody should be reduced to sidekick. Choosing to play one, fully-informed? Fine. Tricked into it by a ruleset built around some classes being inferior, but pretending that they aren't? Badwrongfun, IMHO.
 

I don't know even know what to say. 4E had its moment on the pedestal, and you can still play it. You can probably even play 4E-esque modules for D&D Next in the future. In the meantime, D&D Next is trying something else. So, um, I don't know, sorry?

LOL

The EXACT same things were said about 3e, and 4e had massive problems getting sold. What makes you think that kissing off about a third of the player base (at least) is a good idea?
 

The EXACT same things were said about 3e, and 4e had massive problems getting sold. What makes you think that kissing off about a third of the player base (at least) is a good idea?
I said like D&D Next's direction; it's your incorrect interpretation that I think it's a good thing objectively. I don't really care if it's good or bad for WoTC or the fanbase, and they don't care what I think. Does that sound terribly apathetic? I suppose I'm not as passionate as others about stating what I think WoTC should do.
 

Nobody should be reduced to sidekick. Choosing to play one, fully-informed? Fine. Tricked into it by a ruleset built around some classes being inferior, but pretending that they aren't? Badwrongfun, IMHO.
I don't necessarily disagree with that idea. I would hope, for example, that no one playing a bard expects their song-singing jack-of-all-trades to be particularly good at fighting. Someone playing a rogue expects to uses some skills and stab someone in the back every now and then, but is under no illusion that he can fly or control minds. In general, D&D is very good about setting expectations.

Likewise, I don't think that there's ever been any pretense about who was the best at healing and who wasn't. If you want to play a party without a cleric, the consequences vary greatly by situation, but in any case the players usually have a decent idea of what they're getting into and what those consequences will be. Thus, if you are in one of those campaigns were healing is significant, and you don't have prime access to supernatural healing abilities, you're at a disadvantage. Nothing wrong with that. Eyes wide open. No need to go down the "let's make up an excuse to give someone else healing abilities" road.
 

What makes you think that kissing off about a third of the player base (at least) is a good idea?
If there is anyone that is actually attached to a class that has little to no precedent or meaning in any fantasy literature or rpg outside of one specific version of D&D, ignorant enough that they buy into the nonsensical rationalizations used to justify its very existence, and obstinate or spiteful enough that they won't even listen to the sort of rationale posited by KM a few pages back that addresses whatever sliver of legitimacy this whole thing might have, and that cares enough about this to be "kissed off"...

Let 'em go.

Goodness knows the rest of us are more interested in having fun than in ruining everyone else's.

I doubt it's a third of any meaningful group, but even if it is, there's no pleasing them within reason, and it sure wasn't 5e that created this dynamic.
 

If there is anyone that is actually attached to a class that has little to no precedent or meaning in any fantasy literature or rpg outside of one specific version of D&D, ignorant enough that they buy into the nonsensical rationalizations used to justify its very existence, and obstinate or spiteful enough that they won't even listen to the sort of rationale posited by KM a few pages back that addresses whatever sliver of legitimacy this whole thing might have, and that cares enough about this to be "kissed off"...

Let 'em go.

Goodness knows the rest of us are more interested in having fun than in ruining everyone else's.

I doubt it's a third of any meaningful group, but even if it is, there's no pleasing them within reason, and it sure wasn't 5e that created this dynamic.

Wow, really? No precedent? No meaning in any fantasy literature? Can you honestly look at the Warlord class and not see its antecedents? "Ignorant enough"?

Just how much badwrongfun can you cram into one post anyway?
 


Lines in the sand...

In which case, and a genuine question here, why aren't you up in arms about the dragon just posted. If it was in 4e it would be the single most metagame-oriented monster in the entire edition. If it's a line in the sand, the dragon is way way over it. Legendary Points and the Ignore 4 spells/day are both raw metagame points.

If that's your line in the sand, Next has just not crossed it, but is busy playing volleyball over it.
 

the Fighter already has good, strong an powerful attacks. If he spends his expertise dice to buff someone else, it must still be able to compete with what he could do if he augmented his own attacks. A class that by definition is based more on helping others and is less effective in fighting (or spellcasting ,or whatever other things you do in combat) on its own would work better with this.
I agree with this. It is part of why I think a warlord probably has to be a separate class.

the Warlord mechanic works very well in the heal space, but I'm struggling how it can bring real benefit in the maneuver space (given Next more constrained action economy).
I thought so too, but then when I looked at the options it seemed that there was at least some room. (See post 89 upthread, or the OP of my current warlord thread.)

When you consider "Combat as Sport", I can see the urge to balance the Warlord *against* the cleric, but I still consider it a bad idea, as it leads to 1) boring (imho) class sameyness

<snip>

the spotlight would be easier to share between clearly differentiated characters, rather than mechanical twins with a divine/mundane coat of paint.
In the builds I've suggested in this and my other thread, I've deliberately differentiated warlords by giving them the encounter powers that seem to be more typical of Next martial PCs.

It is others who are telling me that I should just use a cavalier paladin but refluff it. Now that's samey-ness.
 
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