D&D 5E Wandering Monsters: Creepy and Crawly—Simultaneously!

[steeldragons]

No, you just don't get it. All monsters, no matter how similar, MUST have unique stat blocks. Even if the only difference between one and another is a single point of damage, we must replicate entire monster entries for each individual monster.

Any deviation from this must be fought with all our might.

/sarcasm off.

So, you won't mind, then, when we end up with a MM that has a single "Dragon" entry...We just need the one...with a few notes about individual details. Pff. DEtails? Who needs 'em? One "Giant"...one "Demon"...one "Genie"...hells, make one "Canine" too!...They're all just the same genus and everything...same attacks...just give us different sizes...lookit all this room we're saving. Wow!

/sarcasm off.

 

[Hussar]

So, you won't mind, then, when we end up with a MM that has a single "Dragon" entry...We just need the one...with a few notes about individual details. Pff. DEtails? Who needs 'em? One "Giant"...one "Demon"...one "Genie"...hells, make one "Canine" too!...They're all just the same genus and everything...same attacks...just give us different sizes...lookit all this room we're saving. Wow!

/sarcasm off.

Why not?

Why do we need 12 different dragon stat blocks? I mean really, why? There is virtually no difference between them besides base numbers. A white dragon has exactly the same attacks as a red dragon. The only difference is dice size. So, why do we need pages of tables for dragons? Why not simplify them down to "Dragon" and then have decent rules for changing sizes?

Giants are the same. What is the difference, mechanically, between a hill giant and a stone giant? They are virtually identical. Yet we have to have separate stat blocks? What in the heck for?

Demon? Well, that's a bit trickier isn't it? After all, different demons have wildly varying attack routines. A Vrock doesn't attack the same as a Marilith. And a Balor is different from either one. So, it makes sense to have differing stat blocks here.

But dog or canine? Again, why not? What is the significant difference between a dog and a wolf other than size? They both act largely the same way. So, you have Dog (small) Dog (medium) and Dog (large) and now you've covered everything from a chihuahua to a dire wolf. Done.

Why on earth do you need fifteen different stat blocks for what is essentially the same creature?

 

[urLordy]

Why on earth do you need fifteen different stat blocks for what is essentially the same creature?

The value of good presentation that inspires and sparks the imagination, like a good read or an evocative illustration. Remember how some people found 4E a dry read in the beginning? D&D isn't just a rules compendium, not for everyone. (Like advertising, it doesn't work equally on everyone, but presentation matters enough).

 

[Nymrohd]

The value of good presentation that inspires and sparks the imagination, like a good read or an evocative illustration. Remember how some people found 4E a dry read in the beginning? D&D isn't just a rules compendium, not for everyone. (Like advertising, it doesn't work equally on everyone, but presentation matters enough).

But the presentation can be done outside stat blocks. Use all the space saved from reproducing the same stat block with minute differences to add images and ecology blurps for the different things that are represented by the stat block. Dragons could have one stat primary stat block per size on the first page and then we can have pages for each individual type with a much smaller stat block with the additional attacks of this type and more on ecology and the likes.

I get how D&D attracts people with OCD but must we market to a disease?

 

[Klaus]

Why not?

Why do we need 12 different dragon stat blocks? I mean really, why? There is virtually no difference between them besides base numbers. A white dragon has exactly the same attacks as a red dragon. The only difference is dice size. So, why do we need pages of tables for dragons? Why not simplify them down to "Dragon" and then have decent rules for changing sizes?

Giants are the same. What is the difference, mechanically, between a hill giant and a stone giant? They are virtually identical. Yet we have to have separate stat blocks? What in the heck for?

Demon? Well, that's a bit trickier isn't it? After all, different demons have wildly varying attack routines. A Vrock doesn't attack the same as a Marilith. And a Balor is different from either one. So, it makes sense to have differing stat blocks here.

But dog or canine? Again, why not? What is the significant difference between a dog and a wolf other than size? They both act largely the same way. So, you have Dog (small) Dog (medium) and Dog (large) and now you've covered everything from a chihuahua to a dire wolf. Done.

Why on earth do you need fifteen different stat blocks for what is essentially the same creature?

When it comes to creatures such as Wasp, Hound, Cat, etc, I agree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] : one entry with a Customization sidebar is more than enough (look at how the Giant Lizard entry in DDN eliminated the need for pages of Cave Lizards, Crocodiles and the like).

Giants, on the other hand, have extensive cultural differences that would already warrant them more pages, so it's not a big effort to give them separate stats, as well. BUT, the differences need to be a bit more than just AC, to hit and damage numbers. IMHO, these creatures need to FIGHT differently (storm giants hurl lightning, frost giants have a cold effect, hill giants simply try to beat you to a pulp, stone giants are expert rock-throwers, etc).

But Wasps/Hornets/Bees have none of that, they have similar shapes and behave similar enough to allow for a single entry for the vrious kinds of winged insects.

As for Dragons: Birthright already did that. "Cerillian Dragon" was a single entry with stats for Old, Very Old, Ancient and Venerable dragons. In 1e-3e, I'd say that Dragons could be summed into a single entry, with customization options, such as "White Dragon: this creature's breath deals cold damage; Traits: Icewalking". In 4e, dragons got more differentiation (whites are more berserk, greens are manipulative, etc). Judging by the Black Dragon entry Mearls previewed, it seems like that differentiation will continue, and will include motivations and lair details, so the dragons still warrant individual entries.

 

[urLordy]

But the presentation can be done outside stat blocks. Use all the space saved from reproducing the same stat block with minute differences to add images and ecology blurps for the different things that are represented by the stat block. Dragons could have one stat primary stat block per size on the first page and then we can have pages for each individual type with a much smaller stat block with the additional attacks of this type and more on ecology and the likes.

I guess, but that would express that all differences are cosmetic.

Like an alien looking down on Earth and saying that all humans are the same, and not significantly different than, say, squids, so the alien designs a game called Planet Earth where there is one stat block for Homo Sapiens. Then the alien reads a game called Dungeons and Dragons and scoffs at all the variations of humanoids. "Why on Earth", the alien would mock, "do we need 50 stat blocks for what is essentially the same creature?"

 

[Nymrohd]

When it comes to creatures such as Wasp, Hound, Cat, etc, I agree with @Hussar : one entry with a Customization sidebar is more than enough (look at how the Giant Lizard entry in DDN eliminated the need for pages of Cave Lizards, Crocodiles and the like).

Giants, on the other hand, have extensive cultural differences that would already warrant them more pages, so it's not a big effort to give them separate stats, as well. BUT, the differences need to be a bit more than just AC, to hit and damage numbers. IMHO, these creatures need to FIGHT differently (storm giants hurl lightning, frost giants have a cold effect, hill giants simply try to beat you to a pulp, stone giants are expert rock-throwers, etc).

But Wasps/Hornets/Bees have none of that, they have similar shapes and behave similar enough to allow for a single entry for the vrious kinds of winged insects.

As for Dragons: Birthright already did that. "Cerillian Dragon" was a single entry with stats for Old, Very Old, Ancient and Venerable dragons. In 1e-3e, I'd say that Dragons could be summed into a single entry, with customization options, such as "White Dragon: this creature's breath deals cold damage; Traits: Icewalking". In 4e, dragons got more differentiation (whites are more berserk, greens are manipulative, etc). Judging by the Black Dragon entry Mearls previewed, it seems like that differentiation will continue, and will include motivations and lair details, so the dragons still warrant individual entries.

Curious but why do you see giants as that magical? Before 4E only storm & cloud giants had such abilities (and stone giant elders ofc). Do we expect giants in DDN to keep their elemental nature?

 

[Klaus]

Curious but why do you see giants as that magical? Before 4E only storm & cloud giants had such abilities (and stone giant elders ofc). Do we expect giants in DDN to keep their elemental nature?

Fire and Frost giants already have an elemental aspect, as descendants of Surtur and Thrym. And Stone giants always had the best "rock throwing" of all giants. Hill giants, otoh, have always been pretty much equal to Ogres. I think they could be given a more savage, barely coherent, melee routine (reflecting how primitive they are when compared to the other giants).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Why do we need 12 different dragon stat blocks?

Hell, why do we need 2?

Monster manual on a business card + Page 42 = all the rules you need.

But we want rules because rules are fun and 12 different dragon stat blocks gives you more potential plot hooks and story elements and gameplay features than 1.

 

[Nymrohd]

I guess, but that would express that all differences are cosmetic.

Like an alien looking down on Earth and saying that all humans are the same, and not significantly different than, say, squids, so the alien designs a game called Planet Earth where there is one stat block for Homo Sapiens. Then the alien reads a game called Dungeons and Dragons and scoffs at all the variations of humanoids. "Why on Earth", the alien would mock, "do we need 50 stat blocks for what is essentially the same creature?"

Don't ask me, I agree with our new alien overlord.
If two creatures have specific sizes and the same bodytypes, their stats should be roughly the same. It really goes into what stats are in D&D and that is a can of worms since I am sure noone has ever managed to get a consensus on what attributes or hit points exactly are. If you take the 3.5 concept though, you actually had the stat blocks for ease of use; the game could generate any stat block if so desired since the building blocks for better or worse were entirely specific.
Heck you actually had NO stat block for dragons in 3.5. You had one block for one size per type in condensed form; if you wanted to make a dragon, you had to build your block up from the different elements on the tables. You'd then have to modify all those for feats etc.
For me, the base dragon is an abstraction; I could have the dragon which includes hps per size and physical attacks, plus the legendary rules and then each individual entry would have additional attacks and everything else. If DDI continues with DDN you'd be able to pull the full statblock from the compendium but in the MM it will be somewhat fragmented (base + specifics) to take less space and to actually put emphases on what differentiates a black from a red. Same thing would stand for giants. You know they are big and can throw rocks and that doesn't change from type to type; but the storm one can shoot lightning and that is the first thing you see on his page.