Pathfinder 1E Does pathfinder strike anyone as too gamey?

brvheart

Explorer
I have played most Core Classes over the years, Wizards, Clerics, Fighters, Paladins and Rogues. I must say that I didn't have any less fun playing one class than another due to their abilities or lack their of. I enjoy playing the game and mostly DMing. My characters have fun and find their own ways to contribute to the party. Once I had a wizard and took the track feat because we didn't have a ranger. Made it real interesting:)
 

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Ahnehnois

First Post
I recall having a rogue with longsword 1d12 (+ pretty small bonus) x5 damage. Swinginess extreme!
Five times the fun!

But that's not real reason I prefer sneak attack . I do that because it is empowering on a rogue, lets you attack with quirky personal weapons, a sap, an unarmed attack (you don't even need the feat as they get no AoO if they are flat-footed). Sure taking greatsword proficiency is cool as a rogue, but I like that the weapons selection doesn't really matter a few levels up.
IIRC you couldn't backstab with a greatsword (but can sneak attack with one).

I'm all for diversifying weapon selection. The things I dislike about sneak attack (some of which may be true of backstab as well, to be fair):
*Catching someone completely defenseless is not much better than flanking them. Denying someone their Dex bonus to AC can entail a great deal of strategy, planning, and skill on the character's part as well. Flanking is basically just "that thing characters do automatically whenever there are two of them nearby".
*Useless against many monster types. (I don't recall if that was true of backstab or not)
*High damage values for small/weak characters. An extremely skilled halfling fighter with a dagger still probably struggles to break 10 damage. An extremely skilled rogue can easily do 30.
*Low damage values for big/strong characters. If a storm giant rogue sneak attacks you, the extra damage dice are likely close to irrelevant.
*Damage is per strike and opponents don't get any better at defending themselves after the first one, encouraging characters to use TWF or otherwise load up on attacks. This is exactly the opposite of my image of a rogue who is focused on making each strike count and strikes decisively.
*Fails to provide an attack bonus. Sure, this is patched in several ways, but SA can still be swingy in the wrong way because it does high damage, but rogues often miss.
*Fails to model the decisiveness of the attack. Hitting someone really hard is not the same as hitting them in the right place (vp/wp allows this distinction to be modeled better).
*No real mechanic for rewarding untrained, non-rogue/thief characters who catch someone off guard (which is true with backstab as well).

Perhaps most importantly, as a player I find it much more enjoyable to multiply damage than to roll a bunch of square d6's. It makes rogues/thieves different. It's fun.

***

For me, creating a satisfying rogue required instituting vp/wp (and associated changes to crits) and splitting SA into four abilities. One that gives a small attack and damage bonus in flanking and backstab situations. One that improves crit range, and another that improves crit multiplier, only in backstab situations. And, finally, one that grants bonus damage dice, again, only in backstab situations.

I really despise 3e SA as written on a lot of levels (even though rogue is conceptually my favorite class, and one of the better PCs I ever played was a rogue way before all that houserule stuff).
 
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N'raac

First Post
I started playing D&D when I was 8 years old when I had my first 'boyfriend' and he lived down the road from me. His father was playing D&D and ran a game for the two of us and another friend of his. It was second edition D&D... and I have been playing ever since. I had no problem with D&D 2nd, all my problems started in 3e...

When the 2e PHB came out, I took a break from work to drive to the local FLGS and pick it up. I would have been in my mid-20's.

For the record:

- the correct term is "seasoned veteran", not "old geezer"

- that's not music, it's just noise

- get off my lawn!
 

HardcoreDandDGirl

First Post
You're complaining about him not seeing that point of view, but you don't seem to be really acknowledging his point of view either. In this case, if doing F-Z isn't important to your fun playing D&D, then why would the fact that only casters can do those things be a factor in the classes you prefer to play? They wouldn't.
I agree 100%, the problem becomes when a player wants to be a knight, or a soldier, or an archer... and still have those f-Z abilities... 4e, and Bo9s and a bunch of others have started to let that happen...

And it has been my experience that more players have favorite modes of playing D&D and they don't really care that other classes can do things their PC's class cannot do. Or they approach the game with a particular character concept (potentially even one of waiting for everyone else to pick their classes and then filling in obvious gaps with the class they pick) in which case they pick the class that best matches their concept.
see that is me, I show up and want to play a cool character, but in 1 edition (well 3.0, 3.5, and pathfinder) I have found that in order to enjoy the game I need to limit my character concepts... these books open up fun ways for me (AND OTHER NOT SUPERSMALL AMOUNT OF PLAYERS) to enjoy the game.
 

HardcoreDandDGirl

First Post
When the 2e PHB came out, I took a break from work to drive to the local FLGS and pick it up. I would have been in my mid-20's.

For the record:

- the correct term is "seasoned veteran", not "old geezer"

- that's not music, it's just noise

- get off my lawn!
I may not have been born when you took that day off from work... was that before or after April 1987???
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Second, up to 3e, a person would lose the ability to cast one particular spell once they cast it, while maintaining all their other abilities.
Which kind of matches my point that the warblade is treading on the territory of spellcasters.

If I make a level 10 Warblade, a level 10 Warlock, and a Level 9 Wizard and the wizard is limited to PHB1 and The spell compendium and the wizard is still more options AND more power is that a gauge for the first two aren't 'broken'?
In your opinion. I'm not aware of said wizard being 'broken'.

ok, what is the point? At what point does making a character that nothing about it would cause your, or any other game go off the tracks be an OK argument?
I suppose if I make a wizard who only ever memorizes magic missile, it would prove to you that spellcasters have fewer choices than non-spellcasters? And less power!

The existence of a non-problematic character does not preclude the existence of a problematic one.
 

brvheart

Explorer
ok, what is the point? At what point does making a character that nothing about it would cause your, or any other game go off the tracks be an OK argument? If I make a level 10 Warblade, a level 10 Warlock, and a Level 9 Wizard and the wizard is limited to PHB1 and The spell compendium and the wizard is still more options AND more power is that a gauge for the first two aren't 'broken'? What do you hope to get out of this? I hope that I will help raise the fact that some of us really want MORE like this...

First of all I never allowed the Spell Compedium for what I considered a valid reason. It did not list the source of the spells in it. Wotc combined spells from a lot of different sources that I don't necessarily use w/o way means for me to determine that. Just because some players want overpowered options does not mean that the rest of us do. Bo9S was one of the worst offenders in broken sources. WoTC started going off the rails around PHB2 on. At that point I cut off sources. Just my take on 3.5. Feel free to play YOUR game. Besides, this is a Pathfinder thread so why are we discussing it?
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I agree 100%, the problem becomes when a player wants to be a knight, or a soldier, or an archer... and still have those f-Z abilities... 4e, and Bo9s and a bunch of others have started to let that happen...

see that is me, I show up and want to play a cool character, but in 1 edition (well 3.0, 3.5, and pathfinder) I have found that in order to enjoy the game I need to limit my character concepts... these books open up fun ways for me (AND OTHER NOT SUPERSMALL AMOUNT OF PLAYERS) to enjoy the game.

And those books also make the game not so much fun for others. Personally, 4e no longer felt like D&D to me, nor did I like the style of Book of 9 Swords. Neither viewpoint is wrong, in general, but may generate players with incompatible play styles and preferences. In those cases, your best bet is to find different groups or accept limitations on your preferences from time to time.
 

brvheart

Explorer
When the 2e PHB came out, I took a break from work to drive to the local FLGS and pick it up. I would have been in my mid-20's.

For the record:

- the correct term is "seasoned veteran", not "old geezer"

- that's not music, it's just noise

- get off my lawn!

Lol, N'raac! I picked up my copy at GenCon all excited about what was SUPPOSED to be in it. Glanced through it and threw it on the shelf. It was around my 31st birthday. Yeah, I'm "seasoned" all right!
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
HardcoreDandDGirl said:
I agree 100%, the problem becomes when a player wants to be a knight, or a soldier, or an archer... and still have those f-Z abilities... 4e, and Bo9s and a bunch of others have started to let that happen...
The problem is when F-Z are things that are not part of the concept; i.e. that a knight/soldier/archer wouldn't be able to do.

According to your position, it seems that if a player wants to play a knight who can stab the sun and make it go dark, the job of the rules is to let that happen. For me at least, the job of the rules is to prevent that from happening.
 

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