A Couple of Questions- How Would You Rule?

[the Jester]

Here are a couple of weird questions came up over the last few sessions of my 4e game, and I'm curious what other dms would rule.

First, we've established that water breaks line of effect. The party's wizard (in the air) cast a wall of force at the surface of the water.

Must the wall go up, or is it legal for the wall to extend downward, into the water? Granted that most wall spells/powers specify "x squares high," so that's a general answer- but the principle in question is, does such a hypothetical wall (extending down into the water) break the rules for line of effect?

Second, if a pc is below 0 hps (and therefore unconscious) and receives some temporary hps, is that pc:

• Still unconscious and dying?
• Conscious but still dying? OR
• Conscious and no longer dying?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Here are a couple of weird questions came up over the last few sessions of my 4e game, and I'm curious what other dms would rule.

First, we've established that water breaks line of effect. The party's wizard (in the air) cast a wall of force at the surface of the water.

Must the wall go up, or is it legal for the wall to extend downward, into the water? Granted that most wall spells/powers specify "x squares high," so that's a general answer- but the principle in question is, does such a hypothetical wall (extending down into the water) break the rules for line of effect?

If you throw a Fireball at the water's surface, anything right under the explosion point is still taking damage. (I think fire attacks against water take a -2 penalty to hit, but that might be an old house rule or alternate rule stuck in my head from somewhere.)

I'm not entirely sure if you can extend a wall below the water (as the text says X squares high) but, barring that, there's no reason an effect can't "push" into the water.

By the way, how or why are you sure water blocks line of effect? I'm pretty sure it does not. If it doesn't, you could just put the Wall of Force on the bottom of the body of water. More importantly, can you put a Wall of Force on the water? We don't know if it floats (or sinks). The power doesn't specify whether it must be on a solid surface, or whether you can put it up in the air.

Second, if a pc is below 0 hps (and therefore unconscious) and receives some temporary hps, is that pc:

• Still unconscious and dying?
• Conscious but still dying? OR
• Conscious and no longer dying?

Still unconscious and dying. Temporary hit points are not real hit points, and should have been applied first.

(Incidentally, my PCs survived an encounter when we realized if you "spend a surge" but have no surges left, you regain 1 hit point. The yo yo effect can get a bit ridiculous.)

 

[Mercurius]

For the first I'd think in terms of the world itself--the way magic works in your setting--and the translate that into rules, rather than try to figure out what the right ruling is within the logic of the rule system. In other words, I personally make the "logic of fluff" primary to the "logic of crunch."

If you followed this approach, you'd have to understand how magic works in your world - what the "force" of a wall of force is, and how it interacts with tangible space.

As for the second, I don't have an official ruling for you, although I'm wondering if the Rules Compendium does. But I would imagine that, following the same logic described above, temporary hit points are akin to bandaging a wound, slowing the flow of blood, but not actually healing the wound. So maybe while the bandage is good the temporary HP stay, but then as the bandage becomes soak through and the blood pressure begins to flow again, the temporary HP evaporate. Or something like that.

 

[JeffB]

Is it good creative use of the spell that will make for a better/more memorable encounter?

I tend to reward good play ,as long as it is not obviously something that "breaks" the game.

Temp HPs, to me are not real HPs as mentioned previously..in this case, I would make the ruling against them changing condition

 

[DEFCON 1]

I believe that the theory of Temp HP are that they are more like an extra "barrier" of damage resistance, rather than any addition to the health of the person they are applied to. So whatever a PC's health status is prior to receiving the Temp HP, that status is still in effect. Thus, if they are unconscious and dying and get the THP, they are still unconscious and dying.... however, they now have a barrier of additional "hit points" that will come off first should the dying creature get hit by some more damage while they are lying there.

I'm not looking at the books currently to confirm it as an official ruling, but I'm pretty sure that's how I remember them being described.

 

[pemerton]

if a pc is below 0 hps (and therefore unconscious) and receives some temporary hps, is that pc:

• Still unconscious and dying?
• Conscious but still dying? OR
• Conscious and no longer dying?

The LoE thing I'll let others handle (as I would in my own game! LoE has never really been my area of expertise). But on the Temp HP thing, I'm pretty sure the rule is that you can't gain temp hp if you're at or below 0 hp.

 

[Argyle King]

How I would rule gaining temp HP, but being at 0 actual HP...

- You are above 0 HP, so you are not unconscious.
- However, you do not have any actual HP, so you are still dying, so you need to make death saves.

 

[Balesir]

Water blocking LoE must be a houserule, since only blocking terrain (which blocks movement) blocks LoE RAW.

I think this may be a pretty far reaching rule, actually, since Aboleths and similar underwater creatures will have severe problems (they have ranged powers, and you might speculate that control of their "servitors" requires LoE). Underwater adventuring will also be problematic. The rule about firee attacks getting -2 "if used underwater" (presumably against targets that are underwater, but that's not how it's worded) is indeed in the Rules Compendium, but will be mostly irrelevant if water blocks LoE. Even area bursts need an LoE, albeit to the target point (and the power user needs LoE to the target point), so fireball simply won't work on creatures in water. The target point must be above the water (as otherwise there is no LoE to it) and the burst won't affect under the water (as there's no LoE from the target point to the targets under the water).

Seems like a rather problematic rule, to me, but if it works for your group you'll just have to work out the implications as you go, I suppose.

Edit: on the original wall question:

- the wizard must choose a square of a wall to be the "origin square"; this becomes one "block" in the wall.

- The wall is then built out from this origin square with each 'block' of wall having to share a complete side (not just a corner) with at least one but no more than 2 horizontally adjacent wall 'blocks'.

- Blocks may be stacked above or below the 'origin layer' up to the maximum height of the wall (or until all 'blocks' are used up, depending on the wall type), BUT...

- ALL of the blocks in the wall must have LoE to the original "origin square" of the wall. This is a blanket condition for ALL area effects.

The last, critical requirement means that, IF you say that water blocks LoE, walls may never be created underwater. The caster needs LoE to the origin square (so it cannot be underwater) and LoE from the origin square to each square of the wall (so none of them may be underwater, either).

 

[DEFCON 1]

From the Compendium:

Temporary Hit Points

A variety of sources can grant temporary hit points—small reservoirs of stamina that insulate a creature from losing actual hit points.

Not Real Hit Points: Temporary hit points aren’t healing, but rather a layer of “insulation” that attacks have to get through before they start dealing real damage to a target. Don’t add temporary hit points to a creature’s current hit points (if an adventurer has 0 hit points or fewer, he or she still has 0 or fewer after receiving temporary hit points). Keep track of them as a separate pool of hit points.

Don’t Count toward Maximum: Temporary hit points don’t count when comparing a creature’s current hit points to its maximum hit points, when determining whether the creature is bloodied, or for other effects that depend on its current hit points.

Lose Temporary Hit Points First: When a creature takes damage, first subtract its temporary hit points from the damage. Any remaining damage reduces its current hit points.

Not Cumulative: If a creature receives temporary hit points multiple times, use the highest value as its temporary hit point total. Do not add the values together. For example, a creature receives 5 temporary hit points and later receives 5 temporary hit points again before the first 5 were used. It now has 5 temporary hit points, not 10. Likewise, if a creature’s temporary hit points have been reduced and the creature receives temporary hit points again, it benefits from the higher number. For example, a creature gains 10 temporary hit points and takes 8 damage, reducing its temporary hit points to 2, then receives 5 temporary hit points. It now has 5 temporary hit points, not 7.

Until a Rest: A creature’s temporary hit points last until they’re reduced to 0 or until the creature takes a short rest or an extended rest.

 

[the Jester]

Water blocking LoE must be a houserule, since only blocking terrain (which blocks movement) blocks LoE RAW.

Sorry, I think I phrased it poorly- what I mean is that we've ruled that the surface of the water breaks LoE- in other words, you can't cast spells effectively from out of the water to in the water, but you can cast from one spot underwater to another. You just can't break the interface.

I don't know why I've got that rule, actually; I thought it was RAW, that I saw it somewhere, but perhaps I'm misremembering?