Item question regarding Bags of Holding

[delericho]

Sorry, no, just an internet post based on that poster's memory...

Oh well. Thanks anyway.

 

[delericho]

Found it. Apparently, the table is on page 110 of the 3.0e PHB. Or, the same data can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040406a

 

[Greenfield]

Except it's 30 cubic metres of stuff, which is unreasonable for a a full round action.

Unless you think the wording of the Haversack is meant to suggest that the backpack is making a telepathic connection with the user and is bringing the desired object to the top (I do not think it is, but I can see how one could get that), then I still stand by my earlier suggestions.

Bag of Holding: This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into the bag, it weighs a fixed amount. This weight, and the limits in weight and volume of the bag’s contents, depend on the bag’s type, as shown on the table below.
Type I 15 lb. 250 lb. 30 cu. ft. 2,500 gp
Type II 25 lb. 500 lb. 70 cu. ft. 5,000 gp
Type III 35 lb. 1,000 lb. 150 cu. ft. 7,400 gp
Type IV 60 lb. 1,500 lb. 250 cu. ft. 10,000 gp

If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate. Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.
If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane:
The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holdingin the process.
Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest.

So, according to the SRD, the smallest bag is 30 cubic feet, not meters. That makes it a shade under 1 cubic meter. (0.87782 cubic meters, to be exact).

The largest bag, at 250 cubic feet, is a xhade over 7 cubic meters. (7.0792 to be exact).

So, if we presume a roughly bag-shaped interior, you might have to stretch to reach all of the inside of a small bag, but it's pretty much all reachable.

Is the bag making a telepathic connection? Who cares? By whatever mechanism or rationalization, the item you want is always on top. It says so right in the item description.

Next question: The rules don't say that there's gravity inside the bag.
Next answer: They also don't explicitly say that there's gravity in a normal backpack. Or, in fact, anywhere in the game world. There are falling rules, yes, but nothing that explicitly says when or how someone falls.

Planar Handbook and Manual of the Planes mention that many other planes have different gravity rules. High, low, none, reverse, subjective, etc. But each planar description is supposed to include that detail. Lacking such a note, normal gravity is the standard.

So the lack of a specific statement regarding gravity doesn't mean that there isn't any. At least, not in any game world I've ever run or played in. You, as DM, are certainly free to interpret the rules any way you like. Interpreting the lack of a rule kind of stretches that, but hey, it's your game. But with that, however, please accept that it isn't necessarily everyone elses.

Next question: The rules don't say you can accidentally overload a Bag or Haversack.
Next answer: They also don't explicitly say you can accidentally overload a horse, or yourself.

Does this mean that you only have a carry limit if you're consciously thinking about it, or intentionally exceeding it?

Does it imply that there is no actual limit to the Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack? That you can stuff as much as you like in there, so long as you don't think about it?

Now, reasonably, one could rule that, volume wise, it reaches a limit and gets full just like any other bag, and you can't overload its volume limit simply because you can't fit any more in. It kind of flies in the face of what the Bag's descriptions suggest, but it's reasonable and easy to visualize.

Not sure how you'd run into any obvious limit with regards to weight though. Anyone who has ever had groceries tear through an overloaded paper bag knows that you can easily overload a bag without realizing it.

<Tangent>Once, when I was DMing, the party found a bag. Unsure of what it was, one of the player picked up his dice bag, to illustrate his actions. "I drop a dagger in, to see what happens to it.", he said, as he held a pencil over the empty dice bag and dropped it in, point first.

I asked him, calmly, what he thought would happen to a magic Bag of Holding, if someone dropped a sharp object, such as a dagger, into it, point first.

There was a quiet look of shock that passed around the table as they realized what he had just done.

Later that same group defeated some patrolling soldiers and, being greedy, tookall their weapons, including their lances. I asked what they were doing with them. That same player took a handful of pencils and that same dice bag and said, "I'll just stuff them int my Bag of Holding"., illustrating by shoving the pencils in, point first.

You don't ofteen see the same look of shock pass around a table twice in the same session, for the same reason.</Tangent>

In my experience, PCs make mistakes with their items all the time. Most aren't catastrophic, but they happen. To suggest that a DM should simply rule that mistakes and accidents can't happen is, well the word "Generous" doesn't quite seem to cover it, but you get the idea.

 

[Kobold Stew]

So, according to the SRD, the smallest bag is 30 cubic feet, not meters.

<snip>
Is the bag making a telepathic connection? Who cares? By whatever mechanism or rationalization, the item you want is always on top. It says so right in the item description.

Thanks for correcting me on the space. My mistake.

If you're not interested in the "how" of how the object gets to the top, it's not clear to me what we're talking about any more. "It says so" isn't an answer that will advance the discussion, since that's not in dispute.

In any case, I don't see this as something worth worrying about. There are basic details in the SRD, and it's the table's job from there. You gave a great story in your tangent that showed that extrapolating at the table helped create an awesome moment. That's all we're looking for, right? Awesome moments in play for everyone in the game.

 

[Vegepygmy]

To suggest that a DM should simply rule that mistakes and accidents can't happen is, well the word "Generous" doesn't quite seem to cover it, but you get the idea.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it can't happen; just that it shouldn't be the default assumption.

But it seems clear that you have a certain play-style that works for you, and that's great. Have fun!

 

[N'raac]

So, according to the SRD, the smallest bag is 30 cubic feet, not meters. That makes it a shade under 1 cubic meter. (0.87782 cubic meters, to be exact).

The largest bag, at 250 cubic feet, is a xhade over 7 cubic meters. (7.0792 to be exact).

So, if we presume a roughly bag-shaped interior, you might have to stretch to reach all of the inside of a small bag, but it's pretty much all reachable.

But it takes no longer to haul something out of the largest bag. How far down is the bottom of that bag? A perfect cube would be over 6 feet, or 1.92 meters, to a side.

Next question: The rules don't say that there's gravity inside the bag.
Next answer: They also don't explicitly say that there's gravity in a normal backpack. Or, in fact, anywhere in the game world. There are falling rules, yes, but nothing that explicitly says when or how someone falls.

The rules don't need to tell us how things work in the normal world. And whether or not there is gravity in the bag is not the issue, to me. It is how and whether the gravity in this non-dimensional space (assuming this gravity exists) interacts with the gravity in the real world through the aperture of the bag opening which somehow transfers matter between the two dimensions.

Next question: The rules don't say you can accidentally overload a Bag or Haversack.
Next answer: They also don't explicitly say you can accidentally overload a horse, or yourself.

Do you assume that water rushes into a backpack or a sack, thereby rupturing it, should you open that backpack underwater? It's probably not watertight to begin with, so you don't need to open it.

Does this mean that you only have a carry limit if you're consciously thinking about it, or intentionally exceeding it?

Does it imply that there is no actual limit to the Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack? That you can stuff as much as you like in there, so long as you don't think about it?

I don't think anyone is arguing you can overstuff the bag either. But we are suggesting the magic of the bag might prevent excessive mass or volume being placed therein, and/or may require objects actually be pushed through the interdimensional aperture such that water will not just rush in. The rules also do not say holding the bag upside down causes all the contents to fall out, but it is explicit that turning it inside out does so, and essentially makes the interdimensional space inaccessible until it is put to rights. Where does that "bigger on the inside than it is on the outside" space go when the bag is turned inside out? We don't have to stuff it back in somehow.

You are trying to apply real world physics to a non-real world situation. You have not answered two of my own real world physics questions:

1. does the weight of the air count in the bag, such that it can hold more other objects if filled with the thin air in the mountains than with the thicker air at sea level?
2. why does the air in the bag, measured by the time it can support a single person inside, not vary with either the size of the bag or the volume of other items held within it?

The fact is that the Bag of Holding is magical, so assuming it will match real world physics in some areas when it clearly does not in others seems like it should not be automatic. It's not out of the question, but it is similarly not the only reasonable interpretation.

The players who have deliberately thrust sharp objects into the Bag have placed an object in the bag, and deal with the consequences. That is not the same as "oh, you open it underwater so water floods in and it bursts". I'm not sure why someone would drop a dagger point first into anything - an ordinary bag would be punctured as well. To the lances, a wiser person would wrap the pointed ends in something so they would not poke holes in the bag.

If I were going to rule that opening the bag underwater will cause water to rush in and burst it, I think a Knowledge: Arcana check would be in order before the bag is opened, as a knowledgeable magic user might reasonably understand how the bag will interact with this situation. I don't think the players should have to say "I want to make a Knowledge check" - people know and remember things without stopping to concentrate on them all the time. As we don't have magic in the real world, a knowledgeable magic user isn't available to post a definitive response here, so we have to make do with our own reasonable rulings. I lean towards "things more dense than air do not just flow through the aperture between dimensions".

 

[N'raac]

Found it. Apparently, the table is on page 110 of the 3.0e PHB. Or, the same data can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040406a

Well, similar data - we seem to have lost the 3.0 rules, but we can have them in metric

 

[delericho]

Well, similar data - we seem to have lost the 3.0 rules, but we can have them in metric

Luckily, the tables for containers have both the Imperial and Metric values.

 

[Greenfield]

How big/what shape is the inside? I'd always taken that as variable. Think of the inside as made of Spandex or some similar material. It probably starts about the same size as the outside, but can stretch as needed. That's why you can fit your 10 foot pole in there, even if it's the small bag that's under a cubic meter. The dimensions can change as the situation demands, but the total volume still has a maximum limit.

What makes me think that? Because if it's holding an amount similar to a backpack, everything's within reach and can be withdrawn as a move action. You only go to full-round action when you exceet that standard, and the bottom might stretch out of casual reach. If the inside were always at maximum extent then that rule about move action v full round action wouldn't be there.

Will normal backpacks and sacks fill and rupture if immersed?

Backpacks and sacks (mundane, not magical) will certainly fill with water if immersed, though it may take time. Unlike magical bags, they aren't air tight when closed (See rules on suffocation inside)

But mundane backpacks and sacks don't have rules that specifically say they tear or rupture if they have too much in them. Magical bags do.

A normal bag may burst if you try to lift it when it's overloaded. Ask anyone who has ever bought groceries.

Magical bags, on the other hand, don't get heavier when loaded, the weight is never any kind of strain on the straps, cords or handles, so lifting it wouldn't be the issue.

Is the air space inside the same for all the bags? Seems wrong, since some have a bigger capacity than others. But if the interior space stretches as needed then it would make sense that the air space in any given bag at any given moment would be the same, since the total volume of any given bag changes to meet demand. That accounts for a standard 10 minutes of air for all the bags, since the internal space will always be "occupant plus gear plus X", where X is 10 minutes of air.

So, while I see nothing to suggest that gravity is somehow absent inside the bags, I do think that the rules suggest that the space inside is variable. It lets a lot of other rules fit.

Plus, historically, the source for the item was a "wallet" given to Perseus in Greek mythology, one that would "Expand to fit whatever you place inside it." He used it to carry the head of Medusa.

 

[N'raac]

How big/what shape is the inside? I'd always taken that as variable. Think of the inside as made of Spandex or some similar material. It probably starts about the same size as the outside, but can stretch as needed. That's why you can fit your 10 foot pole in there, even if it's the small bag that's under a cubic meter. The dimensions can change as the situation demands, but the total volume still has a maximum limit.

Again, no specific rules exist in this regard so that interpretation is as reasonable as any other.

What makes me think that? Because if it's holding an amount similar to a backpack, everything's within reach and can be withdrawn as a move action. You only go to full-round action when you exceet that standard, and the bottom might stretch out of casual reach. If the inside were always at maximum extent then that rule about move action v full round action wouldn't be there.

I interpret the move action/full round difference to be how much junk you need to fish through, but OK.

Will normal backpacks and sacks fill and rupture if immersed?

Backpacks and sacks (mundane, not magical) will certainly fill with water if immersed, though it may take time. Unlike magical bags, they aren't air tight when closed (See rules on suffocation inside)

But mundane backpacks and sacks don't have rules that specifically say they tear or rupture if they have too much in them. Magical bags do.

So mundane and magical are different. This is what we have been discussing all along. Nothing says that water rushes in to a Bag of Holding like it would a mundane sack or a backpack.

Is the air space inside the same for all the bags? Seems wrong, since some have a bigger capacity than others. But if the interior space stretches as needed then it would make sense that the air space in any given bag at any given moment would be the same, since the total volume of any given bag changes to meet demand. That accounts for a standard 10 minutes of air for all the bags, since the internal space will always be "occupant plus gear plus X", where X is 10 minutes of air.

Or the absolute maximum it can hold, including the occupant, plus 10 minutes of air, since that 10 minutes of air never varies.

Plus, historically, the source for the item was a "wallet" given to Perseus in Greek mythology, one that would "Expand to fit whatever you place inside it." He used it to carry the head of Medusa.

There are lots of "bigger inside than outside" containers in various source material. Perseus' wallet would not burst if overloaded, if anything placed inside would fit.