Item question regarding Bags of Holding

[Kobold Stew]

Plus, historically, the source for the item was a "wallet" given to Perseus in Greek mythology, one that would "Expand to fit whatever you place inside it." He used it to carry the head of Medusa.

I find this really interesting -- is there any source for this claim? I think I know the source material fairly well, but Perseus' bag (the kibisis) is only ever used to hold the one thing. The bag is certainly special (in that it doesn't turn to stone when the head is placed in it), but I don't think that there's any indication that it was ever used to hold anything other than Medusa's head.

It would be really cool if the developers ever did explicitly make this connection with the Bag of Holding.

 

[Greenfield]

Don't know of any hard links, but the "wallet" given to Perseus was the first reference I know of to such an item, and D&D has drawn a few other items from Greek mythology (Boots of flying, for example). So we kind of know that the authors were looking there.

As for the bag overloading and bursting: I think that happens because it's pretty much what the rules say happens when there's too much weight inside. It never occurred to me that this would be a controversial topic.

 

[N'raac]

I don't think anyone is asserting the bag won't break if overloaded. The question is whether it can be accidentally overloaded by water just flowing in, rather than accidentally overloaded by dumping too much in, or accidentally destroyed by someone pushing a sharp object into the bag (though, by your Spandex example, why doesn't the bag become longer and narrower to accommodate the lances, rather than having them push through the bag's outer shell?)

 

[Greenfield]

Yeah, from a player's point of view it's pretty lame for a DM to essentially rob them of anything they weren't wearing at the moment, just because they unthinkingly said, "I open my Bag and grab the staff", or worse yet:

Player: "I grab my Staff of Natural Power and...
DM: "You had a dagger and a wand last round. Where is this staff when you're not holding it?"
Player: "In my Haversack."
DM: "Okay, you get the staff out before the haversack implodes from the water that flooded in and overloaded it."

On the other hand, if the DM is playing it fair:

DM: "All right, you've got your Water Breathing spell cast and you're ready to go in. You've sealed all your scroll tubes with wax, I presume, so the maps and scrolls won't be ruined by the water. And I need you to mark where your gear is being stored. Remember, getting access to the inside of a Haversack or Bag of Holding is a problem when you're under water. If they flood, they'll burst from the overload, so..."

If the DM reminds them of this limitation I see no problem. If it's used as an ambush just to screw over PCs however, it qualifies as major suckage.

Regarding spears and "spandex" lined magic bags: I suppose we could see how much stretch you can put in Spandex with the point of a dagger, but all that does is qualify how much force is needed, and that's already covered. The rules tell us the hardness and hit points of magic items like bags and haversacks. They also say that if the bag is punctured, from inside or outside, it's ruined. To me, that says that if one point of damage from a piercing weapon gets through the hardness of the enchanted leather, it's done.

Leather has a Hardness of 2, and 5 hit points per inch of thickness. Even a quarter inch of leather is a very thick-walled backpack or bag, so I usually consider the base as one hit point.

So if that pointy-thing has any enhancement to speak of, don't just drop it in a bag without a sheath or scabbard.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Don't know of any hard links, but the "wallet" given to Perseus was the first reference I know of to such an item, and D&D has drawn a few other items from Greek mythology (Boots of flying, for example). So we kind of know that the authors were looking there.

Hmm -- too bad. I had hoped you actually had some evidence for that.

As for "wallet", I think the modern use of the word might be confusing. From Chaucer to the 18th C, the word is used for backpacks (e.g. a wallet to carry books), and -- because of the unique nature of the word kibisis -- english translations haven't updated it. While there are other magic items inspired by Greek myth, I don't think this is one.

Cool idea, though.

 

[N'raac]

Yeah, from a player's point of view it's pretty lame for a DM to essentially rob them of anything they weren't wearing at the moment, just because they unthinkingly said, "I open my Bag and grab the staff", or worse yet:

Player: "I grab my Staff of Natural Power and...
DM: "You had a dagger and a wand last round. Where is this staff when you're not holding it?"
Player: "In my Haversack."
DM: "Okay, you get the staff out before the haversack implodes from the water that flooded in and overloaded it."

On the other hand, if the DM is playing it fair:

DM: "All right, you've got your Water Breathing spell cast and you're ready to go in. You've sealed all your scroll tubes with wax, I presume, so the maps and scrolls won't be ruined by the water. And I need you to mark where your gear is being stored. Remember, getting access to the inside of a Haversack or Bag of Holding is a problem when you're under water. If they flood, they'll burst from the overload, so..."

If the DM reminds them of this limitation I see no problem. If it's used as an ambush just to screw over PCs however, it qualifies as major suckage.

The advance warning also allows the group to discuss how the "portal to extradimensional space" works so everyone is on the same page, even if some feel a different ruling would be more appropriate.

Regarding spears and "spandex" lined magic bags: I suppose we could see how much stretch you can put in Spandex with the point of a dagger, but all that does is qualify how much force is needed, and that's already covered. The rules tell us the hardness and hit points of magic items like bags and haversacks. They also say that if the bag is punctured, from inside or outside, it's ruined. To me, that says that if one point of damage from a piercing weapon gets through the hardness of the enchanted leather, it's done.

But you're assuming a lot more flex than spandex based on your description of a larger bag's potential shapes and configurations.

Leather has a Hardness of 2, and 5 hit points per inch of thickness. Even a quarter inch of leather is a very thick-walled backpack or bag, so I usually consider the base as one hit point.

Nonmagical leather has a hardness of 2 and 5hp per inch of thickness. How thick is the bag? Good question. It could, presumably, have some thickness we don't perceive in that non-dimensional space, as it is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside.

So if that pointy-thing has any enhancement to speak of, don't just drop it in a bag without a sheath or scabbard.

Definitely still a lot to be said for common sense, but this moves well beyond, "Oh, you open it so water rushes in".

 

[Greenfield]

I'm still intrigued by the "logic" that says water pressure doesn't count. Could someone explain why, other than to say "Because there's nothing in the rules that says it does"?

Without some actual RAW that even hints that it doesn't, it's an extremely weak argument. (As pointed out, there are spells in the game that specifically protect recipients from water pressure, so we know it exists in the game world.)

 

[N'raac]

If there were an actual rule, it seems unlikely the discussion would be this lengthy. The real question is "how do the laws of physics interact with the magic of the bag?" If I accept that water pressure applies, I reasonably have to accept that holding the bag upside down allows the air to be trapped inside so I can use it as a breathing apparatus. But then:

- why does the air in every size bag run out at the same time?

- and why does air pressure not affect the quantity of air in the bag, changing the weight it holds before I add objects to it?

- If we make the bag Invisible, can someone using it as a diving bell see out of it, or does having one's head in another dimension prevent this?

- If I let go, does the bag fall through the water (given its weight) or rise to the surface (thanks to all that air inside)? I have to say the former for that one.

- If it is falling, does it tend to orient upwards, downwards or sideways? Does this impact the ease with which it is held over my head?

Let's add a less related issue - if I have an object part way through the aperture, and someone casts Dispel Magic on the bag, what happens to the object? Is it forced out of the bag? Is it sucked in and trapped? Is it jammed there for the 1d4 rounds during which the aperture does not function? Or is it neatly severed? The manner in which I interpret the functioning of the magic aperture probably should impact my interpretation of the flow of water past it.

If it severs the item, what a great way to destroy evil items (or good items if you are so inclined). Go to Mordor? Why? Just hold the ring half in this Bag with these tongs while I cast Dispel Magic! Everyone has a Haversack? Targeted Dispel as you reach for that item = "Your new nickname is Lefty" *. If it doesn't, what prevents it? Objects passing through can't be on just one side, then just the other instantly. If some function of the magic prevents an object being severed in this manner, why can't some function similarly prevent water freely flowing in?

* For that matter, if the bag is fully loaded and I reach in to take something out, what impact does the weight of my hand/arm have on the potential overloading of the bag? What if I need two hands to get it out from the very bottom and I'm wearing heavy armored gloves and vambraces?

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, let's talk about those things. Oh, wait, we already have.

Is there "physics" in the game world? Well, there's the physics of the game world, which is to say that there are some aspects that are acknowledged already in the rules.

So if I, as a DM, say, "You fell 30 feet, so you take...", and a players complains, "Wait, you're trying to bring physics into a magic oriented game world", I cast a huge, double-empowered Dispel BS on them before they finish the sentence. Things like falling damage, water pressure, air pressure etc. are already accounted for in the rules. (See Falling Damage, the section of Overland Travel relating to climbing high mountains, and spells like Cloak of the Manta.)

So, is there water pressure? Already established. Will water flow into an open and unprotected container if you immerse it?

Sorry, but that last question was so stupid that I threw up in my mouth a little while typing it. We shouldn't have to even ask it, but some people don't like the answer and try to invent excuses to question the obvious. (In fact, I have a bet with myself that someone will try to argue it, even now. "What if it's upside down? Why would it work across dimensional boundaries. Are you sure there's air in the game world? What if it's a Tuesday and I have a Royal Fizbin?"", etc. )

Now, to more serious questions: Can you use the bag as an air supply? Yes. the rules say so.

Why do all bags have the same amount of air? I rationalized an explanation, but the real, according to RAW, unarguable reason is because the rules say so. Come up with the in-game explanation of your choice.

Will air pressure change the amount of air in the bag, and thus change the weight of the bag? Since the rules say that the bag doesn't change weight when you add things, I'd say it doesn't change weight when you add things. Even something as dense and massive as air. Of course, the air in your game world may be more massive than the air in my game world, so you'd better check with your DM.

Will a bag sink? By the rules, a person with 15 pounds of gear will sink if they fail a swim check. The lightest/smallest bag weighs 15 pounds all the time, and can't make a swim check.

Will the amount of air inside make a difference? No more than the amount of gold or anything else. We could get into air displacement v fresh water v salt water, but since the bag changes neither size nor weight whether full or empty, it doesn't matter. The inside is a non-dimensional space (not actually a separate dimension, just a space that takes no space), so whether it's air or lead, it doesn't displace any water on the outside.

Will it sink bottom-first or top first? Since the bag's weight is a constant, no matter what you put in, or how you distribute it, I'd say... Ask your DM. In the real world a sealed bag that's heavy enough to sink does so based on where the weight settles. Since it can't settle in the Bag of Holding... Ask your DM.

If we make the bag invisible, can you see out of it? That's actually a really good question. Since your head is still ijn the same dimension (bags are non-dimensional, not extra-dimensional), the answer should be yes. But because of the spacial distortion that comes from having your head take up no space, the answer is really anybody's guess. And by that I mean, it's the DM's call.

Now, what happens if the portal to the non-dimemsional space closes while something is part way through. I'd say, see Gate. Whatever the rules say there is what I'd apply.

Does the weight of your hands, with or without heavy gauntlets, count towards the total weight of things in the bag?

How much do your hands weigh? If you're that close to the limit, and have actually tracked the weight of every coin, pebble, wineskin and fleck of dust in there so you know that you're right at the limit... then you have far too much time on your hands.

Technically, they should count, but I can't imagine staying in the game with any DM so predatory as to pull that on you.

 

[Quartz]

Amusingly, this is a plot point in the D&D film The Book of Vile Darkness, which I watched the other night. The hero kills a guy and puts the body in a bag of holding which he then throws into some water. A LOT of bubbles ensue. Clearly the bag is filling up with water which displaces the air.