Pushing the 4th edition envelope

[I'm A Banana]

If I were redesigning 4e from scratch I definitely would look at the multiplier effect of conditions across different classes, dish out fewer condition afflicting abilities, and more unique interesting conditions that don't debilitate monsters when layered on.

I've mucked about with two main ways of mitigating this, with varying degrees of success.

First, there's the idea of a "resistance token." The creature has a resistance token. It can spend this at any time to negate any condition. But in doing so, the creature spends its resistance token, and thus becomes vulnerable to the NEXT time that it happens. The creature can spend a minor action to regain the token, so if the party wants to deny it actions, they need to hit it in quick succession, or harass it with multiple conditions. This generally works OK when it's transparent, but I wouldn't sneak it onto a group -- if you KNOW spending your daily at the start of combat to cripple the BBEG is not going to work, you won't do it, but if you don't know that, you could end up wasting an action.

Second, I find that multiple NPC actions help with this. In my back-and-forth initiative, I give elites and solos bonus turns in a round (2 for elites, 4 for solos). Action denial is still effective, but less so -- if you get multiple turns, your action economy isn't quite so limited.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] Thanks for explaining the exploration roles a bit more. They really do function in much the same way as combat roles, a guideline for what they want to be doing in the scene. I think it struck me as odd because our groups play D&D a bit differently. I do like how it aims to include the entire party in the expedition, which is really true to any sort of expeditioning.
[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] The 'token to negate conditions' system you describe reminds me of a mechanic I'd jotted down some notes about long ago. My idea was similar to the escalation die (from Dungeon World?), but the idea was that PCs couldn't use encounter powers until a certain round #, and couldn't use daily powers until a certain round #. In other words, they had to build up to their cool stuff (which is where the majority of player-inflicted conditions are found). My theory was this would encourage more use of page 42 improvised actions & explorting the terrain features early in the fight, and allow the monster a little time to do its cool stuff before getting shut down by conditions. I think I called it adrenaline or limit break or something like that.

 

[I'm A Banana]

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[MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] The 'token to negate conditions' system you describe reminds me of a mechanic I'd jotted down some notes about long ago. My idea was similar to the escalation die (from Dungeon World?), but the idea was that PCs couldn't use encounter powers until a certain round #, and couldn't use daily powers until a certain round #. In other words, they had to build up to their cool stuff (which is where the majority of player-inflicted conditions are found). My theory was this would encourage more use of page 42 improvised actions & explorting the terrain features early in the fight, and allow the monster a little time to do its cool stuff before getting shut down by conditions. I think I called it adrenaline or limit break or something like that.

Yeah, it's kind of the same function. You could also take a similar approach by "ranking" the effects. Like, stun > daze > immobilize > prone > slow, and make the players work up the chain, but that requires mucking about a little too much with 4e's status effects for my liking. Still, I'm fond of the idea of at least a two-stage or three-stage process to action denial in most cases!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I have often done that kind of thing on my side of the screen. For instance, cannibal halfling swarms whose attacks inflict slowed (save ends), but if the target is already slowed, they are instead immobilized (save ends).

There are a few monsters, mostly controllers, that do this already.

For PC powers that are over the top, just tell the player to switch it for something else. There's an invoker power that lets you stun an opponent, in exchange for being dazed (I think it's called Silent Malediction). We realized it was broken, so away it went.

 

[dustyX]

My base mechanic against the horrible stunned/dazed conditions for elites/solos and my PCs I stole from Next. Instead of the usual action denial, elite and solo monsters grant advantage to all attacks. PCs can choose between this and standard daze. Stun is the same but it applies disadvantage to all attacks as well, and the PCs are free to choose normal stun or the elite/solo version of being stunned.

Some monsters might have other ways of dealing with it, but for any creature lacking a defense I rely on this.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I've mucked about with two main ways of mitigating this, with varying degrees of success.

First, there's the idea of a "resistance token." The creature has a resistance token. It can spend this at any time to negate any condition. But in doing so, the creature spends its resistance token, and thus becomes vulnerable to the NEXT time that it happens.

In a variation of this I considered letting characters and opponents use AP or surges to negate effects. Not automatically, but they'd get to choose which effects to avoid and which to allow so they wouldn't be treated as ablative (Using weak effect to leach off the APs and Surges to use the really powerful effects later).

Heroic get 1 surge standard, Paragon 2, and Epic 3. The AP using Elites and Solos add +1 and +2 from their AP.

So the more powerful the effect the more likely that the creature would Negate it with a Surge or AP.

In the end though I figured it would get gamed and the party would just overload it. For example instead of a variety of weaker effects, everyone focuses on stun to ablate the up to 5 avoidances of a Solo.

 

[Manbearcat]

One thing we have in my home game, which is pretty central to our playstyle and what it produces, is a Healing Surge economy. Basically consider them as fungible, metagame assets akin to Luck/Fate/Plot points that you can cash out (thus putting you in greater danger of running out of Healing Surges and putting you in a spot later in the day), for a bonus of some kind. Given that HPs are in large portion luck (plot protection), the Healing Surge as luck/divine intervention/manifest destiny et al works well. They talk about this a bit in DMG, specifically in the Skill Challenge section and cashing in a healing surge to improve your chances, but it would have been nice if they normalized this and made it a standard part of gameplay. In my home game it basically breaks out as this:

- 1 Healing Surge can always be invoked by PCs to gain a + 2 bonus on a single to hit roll, saving throw, or skill check. This is player side so it is not an offer from me and they don't need my approval. They do not have to ask but they do have to announce it in play.

- 2 Healing Surges can be requested to be spent by a PC to create a scene element that changes the fictional positioning to their (or their group's) advantage. For instance, they're in a rooftop chase trying to corner a bad guy. The guy knows the urban layout well and once they crest the top of the building, they see he is already across to the next building and is about to disappear down a trap door. The alley spanning the building is a High Athletics check to jump. One player requests to spend 2 Healing Surges for a "shrodinger's board" to be flat against the rooftop retaining wall. I agree that its a cool idea and certainly genre relevant. Boom, the PCs span the alley with the board and they can now do Group Acrobatics check at the Medium DC.

- A player may request or I may make an offer to them to spend 2 Healing Surges for a step down in a Skill DC (eg from High DC to Medium DC).

- Every Surge spent/invoked in this way gives me a + 2 that I can use on any roll as I see fit. By the end of the "work day", I will have typically gained 5-6 of these to spend.

Works great for my game and ends up putting a lot of strain on the aggregate surges for the group on a daily basis. This, in turn, makes end of the "work day" conflicts more tense.

 

[fjw70]

MBC, you have some interesting ideas.

 

[fjw70]

The characters would be stuck spamming at wills all day long, wouldn't they?

Thinking more about this it would be interesting to give the PCs more at-wills if you can only have a short rest once per day.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], that healing surge-based economy idea is really elegant. I like that a lot.

Thanks. I still can't give you XP: you'll have to stop posting good ideas!